And surprising, coming from an ELCA Minnesota Bishop. My (probably inaccurate) impression was that most of them up there were in favour of the changes. Uff da.

Wow. I thought bishops were supposed to stand aside quietly while the Chicago apparatchiks held forth. Yet here we have a bishop that dares to tack against the prevailing wind of the ELCA, with verve and clarity. My impression is that the last document of any gravity from them was the '93 Conference of Bishops statement on sexuality. If there are any structural reasons why bishops are silenced in this church, Bishop Wohlrabe ignored them to our benefit. Thank you, Bishop Wohlrabe, for doing what the historic Christian Church has always expected of its bishops.

It is refreshing and comforting to read these words by Bishop Wohlrabe. His observation of single focus on homosexuality does indicate the need for mature conversation in the E.L.C.A. We need to step back from our present course, prayerfully open our beings to God, and meditate on the Word of God. Personally, I believe self-interest drives the church on this issue. Scripture is clear about human sexuality. Bishop Wohlrabe is correct in highlighting the case that the sexual relationship between male and female in the context of marriage is the norm of scripture. I thank the bishop on his clarity and openness.

The scripture is clear! Bishop Wohlrabe's statement is clear! I would agree that there should be self-interest that drives this issue!!! With all honesty thay should come out now. We'll see in the coming week!

As I have said before, this drive to overturn V&E has more to do with what atheist, anti-Christian philosopher Ayn Rand (I've read her, can't stand her) than Scripture, Law or Gospel.

As I have also said before, these revisionists just want what THEY want, and don't seem to be too concerned if the ELCA survives or not.

Thank you for the striking clarity of your statement! We who "stand at the crossroads of fear and hope" pray in hope of the working of the Holy Spirit!

Well done.

Posted on ELCA website today - "ELCA Clergy Support Gay, Lesbian Rights, Ordination, Survey Says".
Is it going to happen? It's will be a shme not only to the Lutheran Church around the world but also to the whole of the Christendom.

Remember who is predominantly in charge of the ELCA, and hence gives the OK for what appears on the website.

The upper echelons on Higgins Road are mostly very much pro-gay lobby. Lutherans Concerned has a LOT of influence.

There's no way they would allow statements from WordAlone or LutheranCORE to appear, not this close to CWA.

However, if you read Journal Of Lutheran Ethics on the ELCA website, you'll find a different story. There are some pro-gay lobby statements, but there are also not a few statements that say this is a very, very bad idea.

"Surveys" can be slanted. A lot depends on the methodology of the survey (is there a control group for comparison) and on the bias of the surveyor. No human being is completely free of bias.

I'm no gambler, though I am a pretty good poker player, but I would comfortably wager that the gay lobby is going to do everything in its quite-considerable power to make sure these "recommendations" are rammed through. That includes the possibility of non-peaceful protests (remember 2001 CWA?) and shouting down those who dissent.

I don't think its any accident that CWA is being held in Minneapolis. Nothing against that fair city, but it is the focussing point in many ways for this whole conflict. St Paul Reformation Church, Anita Hill, Bp. Peter Rogness...where are they all primarily located?

I will also say with certainty that regardless of which way the vote goes, the ELCA as we have known it will be at an end. If the resolutions pass, look for a significant number of individuals and congregations to leave, possibly forming a more centrist denomination along the lines of the former ALC. If they're defeated, look for such increased pressure from the gay lobby constantly that the ELCA's ministries will not be able to function effectively. Already it's pretty much THE issue we're known for in Christendom, and a lot of people are "sexuality-study-fatigued." However, LC, Goodsoil and Soulforce are not going to give up, not until they get what they want, regardless of cost to the church.

As one pro-gay poster on here has said, "it's not about numbers," meaning they're not really concerned how many remain in the ELCA in the aftermath.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU !!

What a joy to read something that I could agree with written about the upcoming meeting and vote!

It has been so tiring to be going through this battle for the past 10 years (at least). We hated going and participating in the Sexuality Studies, we always felt so "set up". So many of their thoughts, recommendations and conclusions bore no resemblance to those of the membership who attended the studies. We felt it was necessary to participate, but we never thought that much weight was given to opinions that did not suit our liberal ELCA leaders (or at least, the group who they chose to do these statements). You could never get over the feeling in the last one that it was a large document with much thrown in, but REALLY was only concerned with changing the church's current policy on the proposed rostering and removal of any sin aspect for homosexual, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered persons behaviour. I don't think much importance was given for the 90 %, or more of us who are of normal sexual nature (sorry, I do not like to use the common term "hetrosexual"). There is so much more to my identity than my sexual life.
In my friendships with many "gay" people, it is hard to find any who do not seem more interested in making sure you know more than you want to about their gender problems. If they feel fine about their life and choices, I have never understood why so many of them seem quite dissatisfied and angry. Is it difficult to see the Fruits of the Spirit evidenced in their lives?


Thank you again, Bishop, you are truly deserving of the honor and name. You may listen to our Bishop Dave Reike-Bauer of the Oregon Synod on line giving a speech to a congregation that was considering becoming a RIC congregation. (The BIG SIN of S & G was that there was a lack of "hospitality"). Can you find it hard to believe that God smoked two cities for their lack of "hospitality? The arrogance of our learned leadership toward Membership is shocking. WE will tell you what the Bible says....it's just too difficult for the common man.....WE are smarter than other Christian Churches and the 2000 years of teaching which have guided us.

Read the plans that are in store for the "BIG MEETING" on Lutherans Concerned and Goodsoil and the RIC Lutherans site.........I believe that the only way the changes will not pass, will be our continual prayers and God's power to change hearts and minds. Pray constantly for the delegates.

I remain, only one member of a large family group who will leave our ELCA Church, should these wicked (not a popular word these days) changes take place.

Thoughtful words from you as well, Ann.

I've heard that erroneous interpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah issue too, explained away by a reference to Ezekiel 16:47. The Genesis narrative is quite clear: homosexual gang rape (Lot wasn't angelic with offering up his daughters, either), and there is no reference anywhere else in Scripture presenting homosexuality in a favourable light. There are plenty of negative ones, though!

There could be a backlash building against the gay lobby. You know, if you press people too hard on about anything, eventually they start to get irritated by it and they push back!

Ann, do whatever the Holy Spirit leads you, but I would ask that you not leave the ELCA. We need you. My wife and I left back in 2001 (actually, we were shown the door) for the LCMS. Stand and fight. Perseverance is Biblical.

Isn't playing poker a sin? Didn't Roman soldiers cast lots for Jesus' robe at the foot of the cross. Isn't winning at poker exploitive and losing bad stewardship?

What are you getting at, Kurt?

There are a lot of ways to play poker.

You can play it as a friendly with chips only, no money involved.

You can play for pennies.

You can play high-stakes with large sums of money involved.

When it becomes an addiction, as about any form of gambling can be, then it's a problem. When it gets to the point when you start selling your possessions, stealing, etc., then it's a problem. It is sin. The same goes for lottery tickets, bingo, casinos (there are two not far from me across the border in Canada, and a lot of Statesiders go there and drop way too much money) or throwing dice.

Yes, Roman soldiers cast lots for Jesus' robe. The apostles also cast lots to replace Judas Iscariot with Matthias.

I haven't heard a lot of anti-gambling sentiment among Lutherans. My LCMS pastor used to play poker. That's mostly from the fundamentalist set (Baptist, Pentecostal) and some Methodists.

I don't see the connection.

Kurt,
I find it interesting than you attack some people in the comment sections for not adding to the debat (and rightfully so at times) and yet here you write this sort of a silly comment. I suppose you have nothing helpful to say about the Bishop's article.

The comment was night lightly. I had hoped you would see the relationship. It is not an attack but rather an observation about the relative nature of personal behavior--the old "log-in-your-eye" problem. I have as many faults as anyone and more than most, but I try to be fair about the applications.

I do not know if any of us have found this site. I just discovered this article by marc on the ELCA website:

http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Journal-of-Lutheran-Ethics/Issues/July-2009/THE-ELCA-Too-Big-To-Fail.aspx


Highlight and paste it to your browser. Marc prepared this two page paper for the July 2009, Journal of Lutheran Ethics (JLE), Volume 9, Issue 7. He challenges the leadership of the church and the direction it is leading the church members away from our biblical teachings, the creeds, and the confessions. I praise Bishop Wahlrabe's honesty and openness. I believe Marc Kolden brings further dept to the bishop's blog.

What do you think?

God Bless