Marriage Analogies: A Further Response
I am hesitant to join in this debate with my colleague, Paul Hinlicky, because I had hoped that he would not take the opportunity upon receiving a trenchant critique by Pastor Ley to respond by reiterating his argument for “recognizing but not blessing” gay and lesbian unions. Hinlicky’s argument had caused quite an uproar earlier among orthodox dissenters in the ELCA because it seemed to be another sort of argument for reaching the same conclusion, the public recognition of gay and lesbian unions. Reiterating that argument has the possibility of igniting sharp differences between him and the vast majority of CORE members whose company he had recently joined, and therefore would jeopardize his role in the unfolding of CORE. So I am hesitant to add momentum to a conversation that can be damaging to his role in CORE and to the CORE project itself. Re-starting this debate does a service to neither him nor the movement. And it upsets me because I want one of the most productive and creative Lutheran theologians in America “on our side”...
I am hesitant to join in this debate with my colleague, Paul Hinlicky, because I had hoped that he would not take the opportunity upon receiving a trenchant critique by Pastor Ley to respond by reiterating his argument for “recognizing but not blessing” gay and lesbian unions. Hinlicky’s argument had caused quite an uproar earlier among orthodox dissenters in the ELCA because it seemed to be another sort of argument for reaching the same conclusion, the public recognition of gay and lesbian unions. Reiterating that argument has the possibility of igniting sharp differences between him and the vast majority of CORE members whose company he had recently joined, and therefore would jeopardize his role in the unfolding of CORE. So I am hesitant to add momentum to a conversation that can be damaging to his role in CORE and to the CORE project itself. Re-starting this debate does a service to neither him nor the movement. And it upsets me because I want one of the most productive and creative Lutheran theologians in America “on our side.”
There are more than church-political dimensions to my consternation about his resurfacing “recognition but not blessing.” There are substantive theological ethical reasons for rejecting his argument. There is also the serious question about what it means to be a theologian of the church. Let’s take them up one by one, beginning with the theological, then the role of a theologian of the church, and ending with some more church-political thoughts.
At its theological base, I agree with Hinlicky. He affirms the traditional Christian argument that the homosexual orientation is disordered and imperfect and that acting upon those inclinations is certainly not living up to the ideal in Christian sexual ethics. He might even call such action “sin,” though he seems reluctant to do so. He is willing to honor the classic Christian appeal to abstinence for homosexuals who have the charism of chastity. He even holds the door open for “reparative therapy.” Yet, he recognizes that there are those who are intractably homosexual in orientation and who fall in love and have sex with those of the same sex. There are goods in such a relation that the church can honor—their friendship, for example.
So far so good. But Hinlicky wants to recognize homosexual pairs not as friends but as unions analogous to marriage. But there are huge barriers to such recognition. The three purposes of marriage affirmed by the whole Christian tradition are: a one-flesh loving union of male and female; procreation; and the avoidance of sexual sin. Homosexual unions are incapable of the first two and actually enact a sexual sin prohibited by the third.
Yet he claims those unions exhibit analogous goods. But the same arguments can be made—and have and will be made—for incestuous unions between consenting adults. Indeed, one could argue that incestuous unions are closer analogously to two of the three classic purposes of marriage. But it falls very short on the third. The church has always prohibited such unions, following the biblical prohibitions against sexual love with people too close to us (incest), beings too different from us (bestiality), and people too much like us (homosexuality).
The point of all this is that homosexual unions are so dubious morally that it is unwise to offer public recognition to them. The challenge to our teaching and practice would be enormous. Ordinary folks in the pew—teens and younger children—would have a hard time understanding how this would be consistent with everything they have been taught about marriage. And with good reason. Even though Hinlicky would like to surround those teachings and practices with all sorts of nuanced reservations, it is difficult to see how they wouldn’t inflate to blessings and then marriage, both of which are directly contrary to Christian teaching.
Further, given that Hinlicky’s proposal is both radical (a new practice) and highly controversial (especially in this time of division), he owes us a careful exposition of what he means by “recognition.” My dictionary has many meanings for the word, but those that seem at all applicable suggest that recognition is a public gesture or ceremony that bestows favor upon the recognized. Is that what he means? And what sort of rite would it be? Where would it happen? Who would do it?
These are important questions that themselves are fraught with serious difficulties. I, for one, could not continue to belong to a congregation that had a formal, public recognition before the altar. But perhaps that is not what he means. But I think the burden is on him to flesh out what he means by “recognition.”
I want to say that I have a lot of sympathy for Hinlicky’s commitment to treat gays and lesbians in the church with pastoral creativity and compassion. I’ve made my own little effort at such a pastoral accommodation. But in that proposal—the blessing of a domicile open to all members of the congregation—I was careful to make it a domestic arrangement that was essentially private. (I consider pastoral care to be a private ministry.) But such “threading of the needle” didn’t get very far. Neither do I think Hinlicky’s proposal will get very far among the orthodox. But it may lead to a fruitless debate, to which I am afraid I am contributing.
A second issue is raised by Hinlicky’s re-opening the argument: what does it mean to be a theologian of the church? One of the reasons I honor and respect Hinlicky is that he is a theologian through and through, and is fearless in making unabashedly theological arguments at a college whose dominant ethos is secular, to say the least. But he also desires to be a theologian of the church and on behalf of the church. But which church? It doesn’t seem to be the ELCA because he seems more alienated from “this church” than I am, and “this church” certainly gives him no recognition. Like most of us, he would see himself as a committed participant in the Western catholic tradition in general and the Lutheran tradition in particular. But where is the embodiment of this Lutheran tradition at its best? If not the ELCA, the Missouri Synod? That is exceedingly unlikely for him since he made a painful departure from the church of his youth and he has no theological or existential inclination to return. Yet, we need a real embodiment of that Lutheran tradition.
It seems that the most hopeful embodiment of that sort of Lutheranism might lie in the future as CORE and other groups define themselves. That is a bracing and exciting prospect for me, as it is for Hinlicky. Maybe we can get it right biblically and theologically. And I hope for an important role in that process for Hinlicky. But in that process the theologians’ role is to find orthodox common ground with the coming embodiment of such a Lutheran tradition. It is to serve and strengthen that emerging project. It is not to exercise one’s maverick and eccentric viewpoint, especially when it seems to reinforce a position from which the movement has just fled, often with many painful consequences. It is putting one’s gifts—and in Hinlicky’s case they are ample—in support of an emerging ecclesial reality, not straining to find a unique perspective on an issue about which that movement—and the church catholic—seems to have a consensus.
Finally, let me add a few more remarks about the church-political situation. What has touched off a huge battle in the ELCA was the Assembly’s decision to cross an important line drawn in the sand—it found ways to “recognize, support, and hold publicly accountable” gay and lesbian unions. That opened the door to ordination. These actions were done after the Sexuality Statement admitted it had no compelling theological or biblical grounds for such changes in policy. The ELCA is the first confessional group to take such a stand.
This led to a division of the house, so to say, and many people have taken sides. Indeed, not to decide means to decide, as we used to say in the 60s. Hinlicky, after some hesitation, took the CORE side. But his reiteration of the “recognition but not blessing” argument seems to argue for the other side. It leads to similar outcomes as those policies recommended by Assembly, especially since they do not include the word “blessing” in their recommendations. His argument seems to provide another rationale for the same outcome. Thus, the first respondents to his argument above had exactly that reading: one said that Hinlicky is “giving tacit endorsement of ELCA policies” and the second worries that Hinlicky has given “an inch and they will take a mile.”
If fairly careful readers of Lutheran Forum Online immediately come to the conclusion that he is arguing for the other side, what will far less sophisticated but orthodox lay folks think of his argument? At the very least it muddies the water for them; at worst it will bring forth angry rejection.
Robert Benne is the Director of the Roanoke College Center for Religion and Society.
mwdooley@comcast.net
Grateful
Benne is right to ask for more clarity from Hinlicky, despite his concerns about adding momentum to the discussion. Here's hoping that the discussion continues.
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Theological ethics assumes that God has a judgment/statement involved with public norms. This arena can only be approached through the divine law. And with divine law there is no forgiveness involved. It is simply toleration of behavior until cultural norms change with time. There is no such thing as looking for answers via the Gospel in these situations. The Gospel is preached publicly, yes, but each individual's ears take in the public message. EAch heart is affected either through belief/unbelief in that the message is for the person who hears it. The message is not heard by unbelief, also directed to the individual's ear.
The ELCA's recent trouble goes back to its history of simply giving lip-service to the Lutheran Confessions. The flow of thought which occurs in the Augsburg Confession and the resultant commentary in the Apology is crucial to understanding the differences between official Tridentine/RC theology (which by the way has not been set aside even by Vatican II) as well as "official" Reformed confessionalism. The primary occurence of difference comes in how we express and view the sinful nature of humanity. Official RCism wants to see a relative effectiveness of the human will positively in terms of Adamic nature. Reformed "confessionalism" seeks to posit the substance of salvation of sinners in similar ways to RCism in that there has to be cooperation with the divine will for salvation to be effective.
The Augsburg confessors in contradisctinction to the above affirmed along with St. Augustine: non posse non peccare, ie. it is not possible not to sin. God initiates and makes effective salvation in Jesus his Son actually/factually in his death and resurrection FOR OTHERS. Sinners get all this offered salvation through faith and adherence to the person of Christ. At least for Lutherans, the sacrament of Holy Baptism plants persons within this living Body of Christ and therefore have become "lost" to their fate for the beneficial fate of Jesus and his history, as St. Paul writes in Galatians: "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me...that which I now live I live by FAITH in the Son of God who loved me and has given his life for me. (loose translation)
The Lutheran position magnifies the benefits that Christ has brought through his death and resurreciton by affirming St. Augustine's position from the human side (see above) and making God's establishment of relationship with us through Jesus even more important.
The fact that Christinaity confesses a LIVING Savior means that since death no longer has dominion over Christ per the resurrection that Christ and his benefits remain valid and effective today as well as into the future since Christ is not only beyond history but beyond history right in the middle of history because he is beyond death...the first-born out of the dead.
ELCA's business with social issues should be confined to the arena in which we search for no redemption. Because there is no redemption in our social issue wrangling. We can only value the relative value of toleration. Toleration of norms, even the business of norming behavior has no redemptive merit in that it is the business conducted by sinners.
One of the sad results of the Kantian world-view is the assumption that there is a possibility of reaching the good and just. The Kantian world-view takes into consideration no recognition of human fate as a problem. Kant understands that the human has the freedom to choose between good and evil forgetting that Genesis 3 is true in its assertions about humans taking their lives under their own management.
Redemption
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I'd like you to explain to me a theology or ethic which isn't at its base selfish. The command to love neighbor is just as selfishly motivated as any attempt to step away from self into a different arena where there is no self involved or even a lesser self. It just isn't possible. People who believe in an ethic that is less selfish are the same who believe that it is possible to, as Ritschel purports, bring in the kingdom of God through a public ethic. Both fate and history will not allow that to happen.
Selfish theology
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Perhaps all that Jesus is for some in the church is a good person to emulate. He is the living Savior.
Or perhaps you have nothing to be saved from.
forgot Christ the Master
I agree with this so...
Three questions: would you officiate at a heterosexual wedding? How about a homosexual one? If yes to one and no to the other, why?
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drawing the line
LCMS?
LCMS
I've wondered the same thing
As someone who has just left the ELCA to rejoin LCMS, I've had discussions with our new pastors about those issues. However, I don't think that the LCMS' lack of interest extends to individual ELCA "refugees"...we've been warmly welcomed.
It seems to me that CORE wants to be ELCA prior to 2001, or maybe more like the old ALC.
LC-MS and the 'authority' of scripture
...so it's mostly anti-LCMS prejudice?
The big conflicts are also 35 years or so behind us now. Seems like this is an opportunity both groups could use to find where they agree in the shared Scripture and Lutheran Traditions. I know firsthand anti-LCMS prejudice is instilled early on in ELCA churches, but if we can only really name 3 real issues, is it really that great of a difference? Aren't there far more similarities? Like it or not, CORE is defining its new church body primarily in relation to its stance on homosexuality and in so doing, it's main argument is an appeal to Scriptural authority and inerrancy. Does anyone in the LCMS seriously dispute that position? There have been many claims here that unlike the homosexuality issue, women's ordination has Scriptural grounding. My limited understanding is that there are some cases where women might possibly have something resembling leadership roles within the LCMS. Could they consider doing as the Catholics are willing to do with the priestly marriage thing and give limited dispensation to ordained women? My understanding is also that closed communion is another thing that isn't always policed as tightly as some in the LCMS desire. That seems like grounds for compromise, too.
A dilemma
As for the LCMS, I can't imagine them being too keen to let the camel's nose under their tent flap, after witnessing the disaster of the ELCA's serial compromises with UCC and ECUSA. I should think they will more likely run away, and quickly.
LCMS attitudes toward ELCA
For the moment, we are still working with the ELCA in terms of issues of disaster relief...but I am very, very doubtful that it will be anything more than that.
Close communion can vary by congregation, but usually the further away one is from St. Louis or Ft. Wayne, the "looser" it will be. However, I have never attended an LCMS congregation where one can just come to the rail unannounced without talking to the pastor beforehand to commune.
Women's ordination of any kind is a non-starter.
Unannounced Communion, LCMS
Unfortunately, I have seen a form of "open communion" quite often in the Northern Illinois District of the LCMS--quite often there is no need to announce for communing prior to the service, and a short paragraph on a communion card or an explanation in the bulletin/worship folder of how communion is understood suffices for pastoral concern. It is assumed that those who come up for communion have read this statement and agree to it. I see this as pastoral laziness, and not showing proper concern for why one desires to commune (Do they recognize the Real Presence?, are they at all familiar with what the Lutheran Church teaches?, are they under discipline from another congregation?, do they understand why we shoulod desire the Sacrament--what Christ offers in it?, do they understand the Sacrament can be taken to their harm? Do they recognize that coming forward to commune is also a showing of their unity of belief with those with whom they are communing [the horizontal unity])?
The grace we receive in the Sacrament of the Altar is the same grace we receive in hearing the proclamation of God's Holy Word. As one can take communion to one's harm, it is proper and truly pastoral to ask that people speak first to the pastor before-hand so they can have an opportunity to learn what the church believes prior to expressing agreement with them by partaking. It is a shame that their is dis-unity within the Missouri Synod in their practice. Claiming to be united does not create real unity.
http://wittenbergtrail.ning.com/profiles/blogs/every-day-a-day-of
Mischaracterisation
The sexuality issue is a symptom -- not the disease.
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To me, the above is correct. Unless we recover a dialogue which engages the issues of biblical authority, Lutheran confessional identity and hermeneutical method, we in the ELCA will continue headstrong into disparate groups. (by the way, the current Book of Faith initiative may be the beginning of such discussions down the road) Perhaps this disparity may not have enough impetus to move us toward consensus. Perhaps there is no need for consensus on ethical issues which remain tied to the divine law. Sinners are imposed upon by the law and that is its appropriate realm. Again, within the arena of the divine law we are always under God's judgment of condemnation consensus or not. Forgiveness under the Gospel occurs under a totally separate arena (ie. "But now a righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law,..." Romans 3:23).
If one attempts to find "rightness" under God's law one will discover the exegencies of the curse
(see Galatians 3:10ff). Redemption under the curse only occurs through the death of Christ not through our own reasonably moral problem-solving.
good luck proving it
That's the way everyone is going to understand CORE. Why did CORE decide to separate from the ELCA? Because of their unwillingness to be part of a church willing to allow the ordination and recognition of married homosexuals. If it's really just a symptom, then CORE should have been left earlier. If this isn't the divisive issue, CORE doesn't really have a reason to leave now, either.
This new synod is going to be built on exclusion. This experiment has been tried before, even in the Lutheran context: WELS and LCMS.
Mischaracterisation
There is little doubt that numerous individuals, congregations, synods and others had a "wake-up call" during the CWA in Minneapolis this past August. Your description of "disease" fits the ELCA organization from my personal perspective, not of CORE. CORE leadership and those who are consulting seem to be faithful to Scripture and the Word of God in an orthodox/traditional manner. They are not following the liberal social justice movement within ELCA.
I will quote Pr. M. Hahn: "People are not leaving the ELCA because they can not stay in the same church with homosexual people. They are leaving because they can not stay in a church which teaches error. They are leaving the ELCA because they can not agree with blessing what they understand to be sin." I agree with these words!
and it's going to do that through exclusion
No exclusion!
Peter, you seem to want to twist reality by finger pointing. Scripture is very descript about homosexual behavior as it is with many other issues. It is sinful, period! Homosexuals and others are NOT to be placed in leadership authority. It is the Authority of Scripture that you want to dismiss and toss aside. You seem to perceive the homosexual issue as a social justice issue. I completely and fully believe that the Bible is the source and norm, not a CWA vote.
Your comments about "bound conscience" are a poor example within most peoples understanding of Luther's words. Luther's conscience was bound to the Word and to reason. The only reason I can find are secular for the path taken at CWA. There are zero reasonable biblical reasons to have broken away from source and normative traditional biblical teaching.
CWA was hijacked by numerous social liberals within ELCA a long time ago with a loud crescendo highlighted within the "vote" at CWA. If, and only if, Bishop Hanson truely believed in the Authority of the Word, we would not be having this discussion. He is both directly and indirectly responsible for the error.
The "ship" you describe left us, we did not leave it. It does feel that we were made to walk the plank however.
Enjoy the journey.
even the LCMS claims to be welcoming
I disagree with the statements that the ELCA is making about bound conscience, but that's because I believe in the authority of the Word, and that Word requires full inclusion of homosexuals in the church. I see it as a Gospel issue within the church; social justice is a secular issue. However, the ELCA states that it is not a Gospel issue and that it is possible for both sides to live together. By choosing the path that it is, CORE is rejecting the entire idea of reconciliation and stating that it is impossible for both groups to journey together. That's neither seeking sinners nor sharing the good news.
Inerrancy!?
more or less the anti-homosexuality argument
That's more or less the position they take in regards to the homosexuality issue--the Bible says so, and we must be faithful to the Bible. That makes an idol out of the Bible and requires that the Bible cannot be wrong.
Can you show how their position is different from that of the LCMS in any way?
Bibliolatry strawman!
so now your faith is in plain sense instead of Christ?
Most of the ELCA's prior social statements have not been contrary to this current one. They have not gone as far, but they've laid a lot of the groundwork, socially, if not theologically. Theologically, if the criterion for ordination is 'be a perfectly repentent sinner', we need to sack all of our pastors because they all fail. Furthermore, we know that homosexuality is not inherently a sin because the fruits of homosexuality can lead to faith in Christ and aid in the proclamation of Christ's kingdom.
LCMS has it "wrong?"
It would be like me trying to prescribe medicine. I have learnt quite a bit about psychotropic medications and their effects but since I did not go to medical school I am not certified or licenced to prescribe or advise on them. For that I will make a referral to a qualified MD/DO psychiatrist, psychiatric nurse, physician's assistant or nurse practitioner.
I don't know of any criteria in the LCMS, ELCA, WELS, ELS, LC-C, etc. that says anyone must be a "perfectly repentant sinner." We cannot even do repentance perfectly, but repentance must be a daily act for the Christian. Luther called it "drowning the old Adam in the waters of Baptism." That does not imply perfection.
You say that "plain sense" can take on a life of its own. I move that you are so influenced by Ed Schroeder (and his own problems with the LCMS) that you are either unwilling or unable to look through any other "lens" that Schroeder and Elert's positions (as you perceive them) take on a life of their own.
do you need an MD to know not to drink gasoline?
If you would like to point out where I am wrong, please do. In a way, though, I think you're making the point I was making to Richard-- which is that there's very little actual difference between CORE and the LCMS. There may be a couple of slightly different conclusions, but so far as I see, the premises and methods are identical. In those premises I see Paul's opponents, Luther's opponents and Christ's opponents, though the methods use the appearance of a Lutheran framework.
It seems that you mostly object to my 'perfect repentance' statement. While I agree that we should try to repent continually, we are going to fail. We live in chronic sin and cannot cure that, whether you consider it speaking in anger, failing to love your enemy or neighbor or homosexuality. Trying isn't good enough nor is it the repentance that undoes our sins.
How many "lenses" do you think one can view Christianity through, and do you see them all as equally good? Put another way, are all Christian denominations "right"? Or even some of them?
Points of contention
It is difficult for me to say "you are wrong" because I do recognise your right to have an opinion - albeit one that I have serious issues even understanding, let alone agreeing or disagreeing with.
There is a substantial amount of difference between Lutheran CORE and the LCMS. LCMS makes a very clear, unambiguous statement about Biblical inerrancy. CORE does not, though they do state their belief in the authority of Scripture. LCMS does not ordain women to the pastorate. CORE still supports this. LCMS (to varying degrees) practices "close(d) communion." CORE does not advocate this. LCMS is much more wary of ecumenical relationships than I see CORE being, though not as much as the ELCA's seeming "we'll have full communion with anyone" approach.
You see the LCMS as being like Paul/Luther/Christ's opponents, though you do not say how. Just because of close(d) communion and not green-lighting homosexual behaviour the way the ELCA has done? That is very different to those who imprisoned (and ultimately executed) Paul for his faith, excommunicated and banned Luther (and drove him into temporary exile), to say nothing of those who crucified Christ. Is Jerry Kieschnick equivalent to Pontius Pilate in your mind?
Yes, I do object to your "perfect repentance" statement. I object to it because of my Lutheran belief in Law AND Gospel. I have to repent daily, sometimes hourly, sometimes every minute. A Christian's life is a constant struggle against sin, death and the Devil. It has nothing to do with "Gospel plus." I am saved through the grace of God and the suffering, death and resurrection of Christ, as are you. To imply that this constant struggle somehow implies "perfection" is not accurate. It has nothing to do with "trying" to obtain God's favour.
I object to the methodology you use, whereas if a theological statement is made that you do not agree with (not limited to though focussed on homosexual marriage/ordination), you say it's "not Gospel" or has "lost Christ." And then, when you make those statements, you do not provide specifics on just what you mean by that. The closest you come to that is to state that Christ died for all, which I do not think anyone is arguing against. However, the atoning work of Christ does NOT nullify the Law. Before you get into the "shellfish" mode, I point you to Acts 10:9-16. There is an explicit instance of Christ changing the Levitical law on foods - but He did not change anything relating to homosexual behaviour.
I object to your very broad-brush statements on the grace of Christ somehow sanctioning homosexual marriage. You say my focus is too narrow. I say you are not focussed. There is not a logical connection between the fact that homosexuals (or anyone), because of their salvation by grace through faith, are automatically sanctioned for ministry or marriage.
I object to the way you seem to filter all matters theologically through Schroeder/Elert. Again, I have experience with cultic matters. I will not say that is what you are doing, but there are indicators in some of the things you say:
"Inside" jargon ("the Promise," "Augsburg Aha")
Belief that one individual or group possesses absolute truth and unwillingness to consider that they, or you, may not. I have asked you many times to consider the possibility that Crossings may be in error, which you have not answered. I read Gene Edward Veith, Ravi Zacharias, Eric Gritsch, Daniel Preus and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, but I have no illusions that these fallible human beings provide anything more than their opinions. I claim no infallibility for Luther, for that matter. The only thing I put infallibility to is Holy Scripture.
You, at times, seem to have taken on a long-dead issue (Seminex), as evidenced by your recurring statements on the Book of Jonah's historicity, which was a point of contention during the Seminex dispute. Jack Cascione would no doubt disagree with me, but I do not think Seminex is much of an issue in the LCMS today. Those who supported that line of thinking are largely gone - first to the AELC, then to the ELCA. My former ELCA pastor was one of those. As I understand it, that issue took place between 1969 and 1976. I was three years old in 1969, which would have meant that you were not even born yet. How does taking on Schroeder's continued anger toward the LCMS benefit your life of faith, especially since it has no effect on the ELCA, which is growing further and further apart from other North American Lutheran bodies anyway?
I had never heard of viewing Scripture or Christianity through any "lens" prior to your statements. I would characterise my views as classically Lutheran: Law and Gospel. Do I know every answer to every difficult passage of Scripture? An emphatic NO. I know of no clergyperson who would honestly make that claim.
Do I think all Christian denominations are "right?" No. But do I think the LCMS is the only one that is "right?" NO. I have had quite extensive theological discussions with theologians far more knowledgeable than I from outside Lutheranism: Methodist, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Mennonite and Nazarene among others. Do I think they are completely "right?" NO. Do I think they are completely "wrong?" NO.
Are there those I think are grievously in error? Yes. Most of the TV lot, like John Hagee, Lester Sumrall, Jack Van Impe and others who teach the unscriptural concepts of "rapture" and "dispensationalism," not to mention the heresy (yes, I'll call it that) of teaching that the United States somehow has most-favoured-nation status with God. I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS to be seriously in error.
Although I would never be a Roman Catholic, some of the clearest and most practical expositions of grace came from a Roman Catholic Air Force chaplain I befriended during a very difficult time in my life. When we talked the rank came off (figuratively) and we talked as one believer to another. The counsel and kindness he showed to a confused young Airman were pure Gospel.
Peter, this will be my last rebuttal to you. From this point on, we agree to disagree.
common and uncommon ground
Internet discussions are more difficult because we miss those contextual clues you mention. I haven't noticed you being cold to me, nor have I been intending to respond in kind. When we've been tossing all of these charges around (lacking Christ, antinomianism, biblicism, etc), I've been taking it (and meaning it) as descriptive, not pejorative. I see them as flaws that we're pointing out with given positions.
I think two of the differences that you point out between CORE and the LCMS-- women's ordination and closed communion, may be superficial differences. I think both groups are able to talk from similar premises to get to these disparate conclusions (much like the ELCA claims for the homosexuality debate). The degree of Biblical inerrancy is a deeper underpinning, though I think CORE has defined itself into the LCMS position by defining itself primarily as an anti-gay marriage organization. I think CORE very much wants to think that it is different than the LCMS, but I don't think they've re-examined the ramifications of their positions nor really comprehensively compared them to those of the LCMS. If they agree on the basics, but build slightly different structures, there is no reason to be apart.
To my mind, one of these basics is hermeneutics, or that 'lens' for viewing Scripture (yes, more jargon, but lens is easier to type than hermeneutics, and I think it conveys the meaning better). I see that as a basic because how we believe people are saved comes directly out of how we read the Bible. One hermeneutic for reading the Bible is revelationist. The Bible reveals to us God's will, which we wouldn't know otherwise, like what God wants us to believe and how God wants us to behave, act, etc. Christ is at the top of the list today, but this is the same hermeneutic the Pharisees, Judaizing Christians, the RC's and LCMS use(d) and how all manner of death and wrong is committed in God's name (not that I'm saying these groups are fully responsible for all the death and wrong in the world, but I think this hermeneutic is responsible for a good deal). Scripture- all of it-- becomes equally the final answer to everything. Each group built slightly differently on this revelation from God (the Pharisees only had the Torah, RCs go one step further and put the Catholic Church on par with Scriptural authority, while the LCMS takes Luther's writings as additional legal documents that clarify certain aspects of Scripture), but they read the Bible the same way-- the standard for what is belief/moral/right/good and what is not. This is NOT the hermeneutic Christ, Paul or Luther used. Instead, they used this Law/Gospel hermeneutic that we as Lutherans know as a "good" phrase, but disagree on exactly what it means. I believe that hermeneutic is laid out in AC4, where it states the two criteria for Christian actions and beliefs. The Law is a diagnostic agent, not a curative. It tells us not just about our problems, but that our problems are sins against God Himself. The curative is Christ, who heals through His atoning death and resurrection. In Elert's words, in faith, we recognize Christ as Lord, Master and Savior. Our new ethics come from our recognition of Christ as such. This comes through in a lot of Paul's writings, especially when writing against the Judaizing Christians in Galatians 5:18: "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law", and is seen in later tradition in Ephesians 2:14-15: "For [Christ] himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,". While this does not mean the Law no longer applies, it means we understand that the Law applies to very speicific situations. It's application to us is always going to be by our judgement. For example, Luther calls many OT laws "Judensachsenspiegel"-- relevant to the Hebrew theocracy, but not necessarily to him. Importantly, abstention from blood (Acts 15:20) was still mandated by the apostles, but deemed "not relevant" by Luther's time. The reasoning (in AC 28:65-66) is that it conflicts with the Law/Gospel hermeneutic: "The Apostles commanded (Acts 15:20) to abstain from blood. Who does now observe it? And yet they that do it not sin not; for not even the Apostles themselves wanted to burden consciences with such bondage; but they forbade it for a time, to avoid offense. For in this decree we must perpetually consider what the aim of the Gospel is." Scripture old and new makes it "perfectly clear" that abstention from blood is necessary, and yet the AC affirms that this is not sinful behavior. Luther's two-kingdom theology also takes on new significance in the light of this hermeneutic in two significant areas. First, it places real emphasis on the church's mission, which is spreading the Gospel. We're all qualified for that job by trusting Christ's promise of forgiveness, no matter what sins we have committed or will commit and given that job at our baptism. The other thing emphasized by this hermeneutic is the malleability of the left-hand kingdom. Government, marriage, labor, etc are all parts of God's left-hand kingdom. They change with the times, but are still instruments of God. With our current understanding of homosexuality, we're in a position to fit it into marriage. For some of us it will be a change, but it's not really a bigger change than when a government changes or passes new laws. We still live out our dual tasks within those estates.
I've brought up Jonah, because that was a recent example that illustrates this difference in how we read Scripture, and led to the whole Seminex thing. It's not anger at the LCMS, but a symptom of the problem with how they read Scripture. I think the homosexuality issue today is analagous, and I think that those in CORE should carefully examine if their theology leaves room for Jonah's historicity to be questioned or not. As to the Crossings method, it could be wrong, but I think it is the most true to the Reformation, and is the only method I'm aware that methodically uses Law/Gospel hermeneutics. Does the method of text study work best for every single passage? Not always, but usually. I don't think Ed Schroeder is infallible, but I trust him as a modern teacher of the Word, as Elert and Bonhoeffer were before him, Luther and Melanchthon were in their time. Specifically with Luther, I disagree with his diatribe against the Jews. In one of Ed Schroeder's postings (see http://www.crossings.org/archive/ed/ReformationResources.pdf ), it seems that he is arguing that the church should not be performing marriages, which I disagree with. I think the church's place is to help the new couple understand how they can live their new lives together in the Gospel of Christ.
As to which denom is "right", we actually have a fair amount of common ground (including the 'most-favored nation' heresy). I think the ELCA has the tools (Lutheran Confessions) and environment with which to visualize it best, but that plenty of Christians in other denoms grasp it, too. However, a lot of their "official" stances are ones that exlude some, many or lots of groups from receiving the Gospel, though I acknowledge that the ELCA is not free from this either. This is especially the problem with Catholicism, where I think it is more the institution that is the problem than the individuals.
Luther and the Jews
But, there are a few things to remember.
Luther could be one to lash out at anyone who disagreed with him. He was not very diplomatic at times. He employed language that would not be allowed on this board (and it's even more vivid in the original German).
When he wrote that diatribe, he was near the end of his life. He was in physical misery almost every day - kidney stones, digestive troubles, headaches - and all of the stress he'd had during his life was taking its toll on him mentally.
He had hoped that once he cleared all of the ecclesiastical Bravo Sierra away from the Christian faith that the Jews would come to believe in Messiah Yeshua. When they didn't, he was both perplexed and angry, but his anger at them was not racial (as in the Nazis), but theological. It was similar to his anger at "the Turk" (Muslims) and "Mohammed's little book" (the Qu'ran) because they did not recognise Jesus as divine.
When he did his translation of the Bible, he consulted with several rabbinical and Hebrew scholars for Old Testament passages he found difficult.
Still, his rant is something that we as Lutherans have to live with - and refute.
My position stands on Ed Schroeder's views. He seems to be quite intemperate at those who disagree with him as well:
http://robgagnon.net/EdSchroeder.htm
I do not call this the conduct of a "teacher of the Word."
I have not found a perfect Law/Gospel application to the Bible, but the best I've yet found is in the LCMS. I do not find the "problems" in reading Scripture in the LCMS that you seem to find, which I would guess have to do with the fact that we have close communion, do not ordain women, and do not condone homosexual behaviour.
As far as a "current understanding of homosexuality," I don't know what sort of education and/or training you've had, but there are people a lot brighter than I am (MD's, Psy.D's, MSW's, DSW's, Ph.D's) who have written dissertations and theses on the subject that have a much better understanding of its causes, origins and effects than I believe Ed Schroeder ever will. As I have stated before, among clinicians, psychiatrists and behaviourists, you will not find anything approaching unanimity about cause/effect and nature/nurture.
If Schroeder and the ELCA's "task forces" believe they are more equipped to look at such a matter from an analytical standpoint, using any sort of logical and scientific methods, then I wonder about their methodology. That also goes for the voters who forced this through the CWA, and the church leaders who were complicit in "steering" the process (Mark Hanson, Peter Rogness, Herbert Chilstrom).
Having homosexual family members and/or knowing them in your church is an appeal to pity and a logical fallacy. It is not a sound method for building doctrine.
more hermeneutics
There was someone a while back here opining that Luther was right about the Jews. I don't remember which thread it was on or who it was, though.
I think Gagnon mischaracterizes most of Schroeder's theological views. I'm not convinced that sending a letter asking Concordia to dis-invite Gagnon is contrary to teaching the Word. If anything, his contention is specifically that Gagnon is not teaching the Word and teaching the wrong use of Scripture. Would you think his letter any more appropriate if he were protesting Crossan's or someone else from the Jesus Seminar's invitation to speak on the "Use of Scripture"?
What about the LCMS's understanding of how to apply the Law/Gospel distinction to Scripture do you like? How do you see it as different from the way the RC's view Scripture, or the way CORE does?
As to our current understanding of homosexuality, I'm not (nor is Ed Schroeder) claiming that it is a complete understanding. Importantly, his arguments do not rest on homosexuality being the result of either nature or nurture or cause/effect. How God has gifted homosexuals with their orientation is a question I gladly leave to professionals. However, it is firmly in the realm of theology to say that God has gifted homosexuals with their orientation. Also, our current understanding of homosexuality is different from the understanding of the 1st century. I think Dr Kilcrease (and Dr Tapis) have outlined that understanding (and the fact that it is different) pretty well in previous posts.... maybe it was "Bodies and Body of Communion" or something.
If knowing homosexuals was simply an appeal to pity or a logical fallacy, I would agree that it is not a good way of building sound doctrine. However, knowing them confers other benefits-- you have a direct test of that doctrine to see if it is sound. Witness is how the Gospel is spread, and that witness comes from knowing. Paul reminds his congregations often that they now "know Christ". It is precisely through Christ knowing us that we are saved, and in knowing each other, we help each other stand in faith in Christ.
Arguing with the kitchen table...
The Gospel is taught in both the LC-MS and the RC church. Satis est criteria is met...(I spent 40+ years in Missouri and 9 mo.s in an RC Seminary)
You selectively argue as if I relied only upon 'plain sense' w/o a creedal framework or interpretive scriptural principles...and you reduce to the absurd with your 'perfectly repentant' (now had you simply said repentant we could make some progress here).
And your last statement about the fruits of homosexuality leading to faith in Christ is presumptuous and w/o any theological grounding! If I can be accused of idolizing the Bible...the same charge rebounds upon your head re: homosexuality. What a vacuous polemic you have presented.
using that jargon is key
If both the LCMS and the RCs teach the Gospel, you have no reason for staying apart from either. There is one Christian unity, and if either side denies that unity to a fellow Christian (as in closed communion, for example), there is no unity there. That forces a choice-- which one is in the Christian fellowship, if either even are. My challenge to both groups is that they teach "Gospel plus" meaning that they are tacking on other requirements for participation in the church and in its mission than just trusting Christ's promise of forgiveness.
The problem with the "basic theological jargon" is that everyone uses it differently, often with the same creedal framework. The LCMS uses that same jargon in a different way from the ELCA and WELS ascribes to the same Confessions as well, with sufficiently different results that none of us feel comfortable with full communion agreements with each other. I think that comes from misunderstanding the implications and applications of that jargon today.
Perfectly repentant tends to be the standard homosexuals are held to, while 'repentant some of the time' tends to the standard used for normal, heterosexual sinners.
That the fruits of homosexuality lead to faith is not a result of idolatry-- I'm not saying any and all homosexuality is good and right. I'm saying that the Law applies equally to both heterosexual and homosexual. However, I am contending that marriages between homosexuals lead to the same strengthening of the faith and caring for each other in Christ's image that heterosexual marriages do.
Christian Unity
You wrote, "My challenge to both groups is that they teach "Gospel plus" meaning that they are tacking on other requirements for participation in the church and in its mission than just trusting Christ's promise of forgiveness." Do you advocate communing those who have not been instructed in the faith, and not instructed in the meaning of the Sacrament of the Altar? Then by your own words, you are teaching "Gospel plus." In Scripture it is clearly taught that one can take the Lord's Supper to their harm. In close communion, the pastor is showing true pastoral concern for those who approach the altar, wanting to make sure the visitor has had the opportunity to be instructed in the faith and in the sacrament. There is no "holier than thou" application here. If one goes forward for communion they are thereby expressing their unity with the body of believers present. From the way you mistakenly refer to the LCMS and WELS it is clear that you are not in agreement with them. Then why would you even want to commune at their altars? That which is scandalous is for a pastor to offer open communion, with no concern for the souls of those who come up to partake. That is unloving. How is a pastor a pastor of the flock if he shows no concern for those who come from outside his fold and their instruction and faith is a big unknown. There was a time when the predecessor bodies of the ELCA did show such concern, but they have turned away from this loving process, in my own opinion, to please man rather than God. If they did have a loving concern for true koionoia at the altar, they would simply ask those visiting to speak with the pastor first. The Sacrament is a precious gift from God, not a constitutional right to be fought for. "My challenge to both groups is that they teach "Gospel plus" meaning that they are tacking on other requirements for participation in the church and in its mission than just trusting Christ's promise of forgiveness." How are those who are not catechized in the faith--who are not instructed--going to "just (trust) Christ's promise of forgiveness." First they need to be taught of this promise. Some who come forward may believe God gives them partial forgiveness and they supply the rest by doing good works. Some may wrestle with whether they were predestined for salvation, thinking this promise does not apply to them. Some may be the neighbor of a member, and may know nothing of this promise, only that everyone else is going up. "Unity" is more than a hopeful word. It means something. Where people are united in belief, there unity exists. The big tent theory may help if you are trying to impress people with how many people are in your church body, but with some members believing that the Bible is God's inerrant Word, and some members trusting in the Jesus Seminar, and questioning that Jesus even said the words He spake, or conjectoring that because miracles seem impossible, that there must not have been an historic Jonah...then you have anything but unity. You have a free-for-all. Now you can SAY "we're all united" but saying it doesn't make it so, and if you read the Jesus presented in the Gospels, you will also see that Jesus did not teach a least-common-denominator gospel. You say "grace" is that least common denominator? What good is gracde, if sinners remain unwilling to repent and turn from their sin, and choose denial instead?
comment
Close(d) communion in the LCMS misses the point in that
the pastoral office has been relegated to management of souls rather than freely proclaiming both law and Gospel to sinners. It is not up to the church to manage souls (as seems to be the case theologically in both RCism and Reformed churches, even in some LCMS congregations.)
Individuals who receive Communion receive under their own volition and receive both to their benefit or condemnation as the Lord sees fit.
Yes, we counsel all we can in terms of catechesis, etc. But ultimately it is between the sinner and their God whether they are saved or condemned.
Questions
And when one homosexual leaves the ELCA communion altar after repenting of his homosexual desires, having heard a "freely" proclaimed law and Gospel from his/her particular ELCA preacher and another non-repentant homosexual leaves the ELCA communion altar after hearing only a "freely" proclaimed Gospel, but no law concerning his homosexuality from his/her particular preacher, which homosexual goes away justified? Which ELCA preacher is off the hook?
comment
Apparently some in the LCMS have not read their Scriptures nor Melanchthon's Apology sufficiently. The only way sinners are kept in the dark is by their own unbelief. Preachers can preach the Law until they are blue in the face but that might not convict sinners. I never assume that sinners are unable to see how engulfed they are in their own tragedy nor how true Genesis 3 is. Yes, identifying, describing and announcing the tragedy through preaching of the Law may or may not produce repentance in a sinners life. It may also produce entrenchment in their sin and continued defiance against God and an entrenchment in their own presumed humanly conceived righteousnesses. I didn't preclude the preaching of the Law in my post. God, beyond our own conceivings and managings, has factually and sufficiently, separate from You and I and all our selfishly conceived ways of managing God's work, has
sent His Son for His own unique mission to save sinners. All this, beyond our machinations, must be preached because the end and final judgment is coming upon You and Me.
What is to be preached?
Changing communion practices in the ELCA
Before each Communion the pastor (great guy) announced, without fail, that ONLY "those who were baptised and believed in the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Christ in the bread and wine" were to commune - and he stuck to that as best he could. I assisted him many times and I remember at least one occasion where someone who wasn't baptised came down. He asked her if she had been (she was a visitor) and when she said "no" he said (very gently) "not today, but we'll talk."
OK, that's not strict close(d) communion...but I believe it shows how much has changed in 10+ years.
About another 10 years prior to that, I had an Episcopalian girlfriend. I visited her church, and before I could commune there, I had to show the priest my baptismal certificate.
comment
First of all, I think the issue of "Gospel reductionism" needs to have commonly shared meaning. I think there is an unsaid as well as unclarified understanding of what that phrase is about. Seminex and some of its alumni have been misrepresented by some with this phraseology.
When I attended Seminex I did not get the idea that there was somehow a lessening of the effects of God's Law. That issue is completely covered in Elert's ethics and comes to a head in that sinners always remain sinners convicted by the changes and chances of nomological existence. There is no way of escaping life within nomological existence. That is beauty of what God has done in Christ by sending Christ to join us in this arena of, as Elert so eloquently expresses it in the German, the todesordung. So St. Paul's dictum in Romans has never been abrogated: "...for with the law comes the knowledge of sin." St. Paul goes on to say in the next verse (I think it is Romans 3:21, but correct me as I'm composing this w/o Scripture present) that apart from law a righteousness of God has appeared.. and then he describes the great act of Christ's sacrifice for sinners. The great substance of the Gospel's effects are received by sinners not somehow creating a humanly measureed change of the sinner but cementing the faith relationship with the Savior who actually saves from sin by faith at every moment (as we are totally sinners all of the time). That is why I continue to value the traditional phrase "justification by faith through grace" and not the revised version so commonly thrown about willy-nilly today "justification by grace...". It is faith that receives all the benefits of Christ.
This is precisely the Lutheran "break" with RCism as well as Reformed: sinners who in faith receive forgiveness of sins freely offered by Christ can never be severed from that relationship established and initiated by Christ in Baptism.
The faith relationship with Christ and how that operates is the key difference between Lutheranism officially and RCism officially. Notice that the first arena of conflict between the Augsburg confessors and the Roman confutatores in the Augsburg Confession is with how sin is defined and operative in sinners.
Now to address specifically to what is being stated in the above quote from your post: I'm assuming that the office of the keys rather than the preaching is the issue. So I will respond with that in mind. The office of the keys is to administer the forgiveness of sins which Christ freely offers through his death on the cross for sinners. Retention of sin is simply the result of sinners not repenting of their sin. In other words, Christ forgives freely but the problem comes with the sinner. If the sinner does not receive the gift, then the receiver does not receive the gift and sin and unbelief remain. It is not proscriptive but the simple result of not grasping the gift that Christ offers: Romans 14:23 "...whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."
Judgment comes upon all of us so-called "faithful" to use your term as well as the unfaithful. As long as we remain simul justis et peccator the sorting out comes to all: See St John 5.
Anyway none of the above is obviously exhaustive.
Blessings to you and yours.
Theory vs. Reality
comment
Again, the offering of God's promises are freely extended. It is the sinner who must grapple with believing Jesus or not. "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."
Gospel reductionism as defined by you is simply another way of talking about antinomianism. That was a danger even in St. Paul's time. That is not to relativize the gravity of the situation in our time. The Gospel has always been an offense as St. Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 1 and 2. The offensive nature of the Gospel is that the freely given aspect of God in Christ's activity on the cross for us sinners is so unbelievable. Hence...condemnation for the unbelief but salvation for the believer. I keep hearing the man in Mark 9 calling out: "Lord, I believe..help my unbelief!" Seems like a good model for Christians to emulate.
Gospel reconstructionism
I don't think it is wrong for the Law to be preached in the sermon either (and before the Gospel, no less). I don't think it absolutely MUST be preached, though, but that's because in some cases people have already heard the Law-- that may be why they're in church in the first place, already crushed by the pain heaped on them in the world by the retributive Law. The church's duty to the broken is to proclaim God's kingdom of healing and mercy through the Gospel. There is a role for the church to play in saying 'this is how we are broken', and sometimes we do think that we are not broken. However, when we start using brokenness or type of brokenness as a standard, we set legalism in the place of the Gospel. We all fall short, and none of us can refrain from sin. Barring people from either communion or the ministry on account of their sinfulness does not give room for the Gospel to work its healing. We need Christ's death and resurrection... that is why we are not antinomian.
How Antinomians turn "Mercy" into "Justice"
But this exception has now become the rule. The terms used and parroted by many in the ELCA show a deep reluctance to call anyone to a personal guilt (except, of course, if you're perceived to be a legalist)! One wonders why this is? Do they feel that it is better to spare the hearer from experiencing a God that might offend, or are they so indoctrinated by Historical Criticism that they feel the Holy Spirit cannot ever work through words of Law, only "Gospel"? Whatever the reason, it robs Christ of His Redemption!
"Sin" has now been watered down by the guilt-free, no-fault term "brokenness". You state that some people are "crushed in pain in the world by the retributive Law." Sounds like they're simply innocent victims too! If so, your "healing Gospel" is no gift of mercy, Peter. It's Justice. And that's a legal remedy, get it!?
Nobody's being barred from communion or ministry for being a sinner, Peter. But the unexamined, unrepentant heart of a sinner that has been spared from hearing the Law out of misplaced compassion will not and cannot seek Christ's mercy. It only seeks a legal remedy for perceived injustice, cause they're "not guilty"! It does not fear God. . .even when it is dying! Such an unrepentant heart uses (abuses) the Sacrament to one's damnation. Such an unrepentant heart uses (abuses) the ministry for one's own glory: a redress of injustice! And that grace that absolves without confession can only be described as an 'ex opere operato' grace. Belief that such a grace can work upon such a heart is simply putting God to a foolish test. And that is why sentiments such as yours are antinomian.
justice is that we're broken
I've replied below for the sake of more width.
clarification
how much catechesis did Peter or Andrew have?
I do think there should be some understanding before one goes up for the Eucharist and it needs to be received with faith. However, taking part in Communion is also a corporate activity, where we do affirm that we are the church, even if we are comprised entirely of sinners. Closed Communion is the church cutting itself off from the greater church-- the statement is that a particular pastor needs to know/has the last word on whether someone is worthy of taking Communion. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" comes to mind here, as this practice requires that the pastor judge people. That is properly God's realm.
Also, since Communion usually follows the sermon instead of preceding it, everyone should have heard the Gospel Promise prior to Communion. If the Gospel Promise has not been proclaimed during the sermon, there's a bigger problem in that church than the question of who is receiving Communion.
There's only one belief that needs to be shared for Christian unity, and that is faith alone and only that in Christ's death and resurrection our sins are forgiven. That leaves room for quite a diversity of other beliefs (does Jonah's historicity matter?), but it is our common confession that makes us Christian. If we hold to that confession, we also need to accept others who also hold to that confession, even when their understanding of it differs from ours. Like it or not, we're all siblings in Christ.
Which "Lutheran" Approach is Correct?
not with his approach
I think I mostly agree with what readselerttoo has said. I think our differences on homosexuality come to what place homosexuals have in the estate of marriage.
Catechetical Training: Jesus' Style!
You ask (in the "Subject" box of your post), "how much catechesis did Peter or Andrew have?" I'm glad you asked. Since Jesus called these disciples, who left their previous lives to follow Him, they were present with Him regularly, day in and day out, during His earthly ministry--talk about catechesis by the immersion method (as in "foreign language by immersion")!
Does this mean that Peter and Andrew always got it right? Does this mean that our confirmands always get it right? No and no. Does this mean that Peter and Andrew were always paying attention to Jesus' teaching? Does this mean that, today, our confirmands always pay attention to His teaching? No and no. Did Peter and Andrew sometimes get it right? Do today's confirmands sometimes get it right? Yes, and yes. Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus acknowledged that he got it right. But he went on to get it wrong: "May that never happen to you!" To which Jesus rebuked him, calling him "Satan" by means of address. Do today's catachumens ever get it right? Perhaps you've been pleasantly surprised to hear it with your own ears. And do they ever get it wrong? Certainly. Does this negate that they were trained in Christian instruction? Of course not.
How many children deprived of Sunday School and participating in the Divine Service have had the catechetical training that Peter and Andrew did? Check out the definition of "catechism." It's not limited to using a hard-bound blue or burgundy book--it is instruction, usually in the form of questions and answers. "Who do others say that I am?" "But who do you say that I am?" We can hardly make an argument that Peter and the rest of the twelve were denied true catechesis.
At one time I was a member of an ELCA congregation, which was primarily comprised of ex-Roman Catholics. Unfortunately, the pastor did little to instruct his flock, and based on the understanding which was exposed in comments and questions at a short Bible Study, it was quite obvious the adults did not know Lutheran catechism, much less Christian doctrine (teaching). Just read the introduction to Luther's catechisms to see who he believed should commune (you might need to brush up on your knowledge of the ten commandments and other parts of the catechism). By the way, at that congregation, the children in Sundy School were just as much in need of instruction--yet good, solid, Biblical teaching was obviously lacking.
Close communion is not cutting itself off from the larger church. We acknowledge the existance of the invisible church, and that only God knows who are believers and who are not. But we dare not pretend that the visible church is identical to the invisible church. Communing all in attendance is akin to setting out prescription medicine on the altar and saying, "take what you need. We trust your judgement." There is a difference between discerning and judging. When we know from a person's confession that they have not been properly instructed, or they don't recognize Christ's real presence, should we disregard it? These are some thoughts for you to consider before you judge the LCMS lest you be judged.
job qualifications for Christ calling them?
What you say about Peter and Andrew is all well and good, but doesn't look early enough. Christ called them as ignorant fisherfolk, and it is through Him that they became apostles. They'd had no catechesis prior to their encounter with Christ, and no qualifications for the job except that Christ called them. If catechesis was a prereq for receiving Christ, why didn't Christ's disciples come entirely from the ranks of Pharisees? Instead faith is the criterion-- the willingness to trust Crist when he says "follow me".
This isn't to say that we shouldn't learn Scripture or receive instruction, but that it is not a prerequisite. I think the instructions regarding Communion-- what you are saying by going up to the Communion rail and what God is saying in Communion (which we do with the Words of Institution) can be said in a few lines just prior to the Sacrament along with whether it's going to be intinction, common cup or whatever, and how to indicate that you want the cup in which Christ's blood is grape juice instead of wine.
I think you reveal one of the problems with closed communion-- "we dare not pretend that the visible church is identical to the invisible church". Technically we cannot make any statements about the invisible church since God alone knows. The visible church could be the same, or there could be no "true believers" present, regardless of what they have said to the pastor. That judgement call is not for the pastor to make. In your analogy, the pastor is not the doctor. I also don't think prescription medicine is the best analogy either-- I think bread is more apt. And for soup kitchens, we do try to serve all who are hungry.
The ABCs of Soup-Kitchen Surgery, and other Fun Applications of Good Intent
"What you say about Peter and Andrew is all well and good, but doesn't look early enough. Christ called them as ignorant fisherfolk, and it is through Him that they became apostles. They'd had no catechesis prior to their encounter with Christ, and no qualifications for the job except that Christ called them. If catechesis was a prereq for receiving Christ, why didn't Christ's disciples come entirely from the ranks of Pharisees?"
"...it is through Him that they became apostles." Exactly! "They had no catechesis prior to their encounter with Christ..." Scripture does not speak to this. We do well to say no more than what Scripture says. "...and no qualifications for the job except that Christ called them." God's Word doesn't reveal any other qualifications--certainly, Jesus knew who was best fitted for the position of His disciples, and later, His apostles. Your observations seem correct in that the focus is not on what they bring to the table, but rather (in a Pauline expression), God's strength is shown in their weakness. His is the treasure, we are the broken clay pots that contain and transmit His glorious treasure. "If catechesis was a prereq for receiving Christ, why didn't Christ's disciples come entirely from the ranks of Pharisees?" I made no assertion that catechesis prior to Jesus' calling of Peter and Andrew was necessary or even desirable. In Matthew 18:3,4 Christ Jesus tells us "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (NIV) In most cases, pharisaical training seemed to get in the way of being an ideal candidate for disciple, probably not due to exposure to the Hebrew Scriptures, but rather to the traditions of men which were built around and overshadowed that which was truly of God. Jesus was not looking at the outside image and rituals, but rather the inside. But this does not negate the need for any catechesis prior to receiving His Body and Blood in the bread and the wine: it simply means that catechesis prior to Christ's call is not expressed or stressed as necessary, and they got all the catechetical training they needed during Jesus' earthly ministry, directly from our Messiah! (and besides, Tappert's ed. of the B of C wasn't out yet, much less Concordia Triglotta [which didn't even include Hebrew or Aramaic for their benefit!] and it would still be many centuries before the readers edition--CONCORDIA: The Lutheran Confessions-- would be published). The knowledge, wisdom and training that Y'shua gave them first-hand was obviously sufficient and certainly not unnecessary (by the way, it is interesting to note who Scripture says was present at the last supper. Jesus could certainly have sent his followers to gather many other followers, and any who would come, to partake in this unique celebration of the Passover. He could have requested a much larger Upper Room, and could have given his disciples prior instruction in the hows and whys of footwashing, so they too could take their stations at a much larger gathering, processing hundreds of communicants in this supper. He could then boast of His numbers of those in attendance, and economic concerns would not derail this expanded Sacramental supper: He could easily ask His Father to multiply the food, if needed [or introduce the flat, round, cross-impressed* wafer to these earlier followers ((*or impressed with the IHS or some other liturgical art))]. It appears as though He opted out of this Church Growth approach, on the night in which He was betrayed. He could also have included women in this first communion in the upper room. Had He done so that night, would God make sure a record of it made it in at least one of the four Gospel accounts?). " Instead faith is the criterion-- the willingness to trust Crist when he says 'follow me'." The criterion for what? For being invited to the Last Supper? For being called to be one of the twelve? For being duly prepared to partake in the Supper? While Jesus clearly maintains the importance of faith, this does not logically negate the importance of instruction in the teachings of Christ and of the kingdom.
"This isn't to say that we shouldn't learn Scripture or receive instruction, but that it is not a prerequisite. I think the instructions regarding Communion-- what you are saying by going up to the Communion rail and what God is saying in Communion (which we do with the Words of Institution) can be said in a few lines just prior to the Sacrament..." Really. I have been at Baptist churches before where they read / quote what we refer to as the "Words of Institution" and then procede to negate the very words of our Lord in a summary statement. And I have issues with those who say that all that is necessary prior to communion is training in communion only--the teachings of our Lord regarding this Means of Grace is interconnected with so many other teachings as well, that I believe catechetical training is required for a proper preparation. Luther agrees (not that he is the norming norm) if you read the introduction to his Small and Large Catechisms. Did Jesus give them a public examination prior to their reception of the Sacrament? Not exactly, although He did question them on their beliefs periodically. He knew their hearts and minds. We do not have that same ability.
My discussion on the visible and invisible church raises a problem with open communion, not close communion. A pastor is much like a doctor. He receives extensive training in the Word of God, and is taught the Biblical languages so he does not have to rely upon a translation in the vernacular. He is trained in how to shepherd a portion of God's flock with true pastoral care, to know when to commend and when to discipline--firmly yet with gentleness and godly concern. He is trained to a greater degree than the laity in reocgnizing what is law and what is gospel, so that when he expounds on God's Word, bringing it home with today's perspective and personal application, he can do so in a Biblical, God-pleasing manner. He maintains dialogue with other pastors in his circuit and district, and studies the Word of God with them, sharpening one another in the faith.
It's great that we are blessed with volunteers who selflessly help at soup kitchens, to help provide for those who are undergoing difficult times, in need of nourishment and care and companionship. But I, for one, wouldn't ask for one such volunteer to do dental work on me, such as a root canal. Neither would I seek bone re-allignment and surgical work by just any such volunteer. Even if I could be sure that he/she meant well, such care requires one who has learned dental or surgical theory and has had at least some practice. Giving communion to one who refuses to repent and continues regularly in known sin is unloving. Their actions and vocalized thoughts express that they have become unbelievers, unwilling to hear or trust God--how can we look the other way and commune them as if everything is just fine? In love, the pastor strives to win that one back to the faith, to be re-united in the active family of believers. We do not do joint church-work with those in denial of the faith, who despise God's Word. Because we do not want people to take the supper to their harm, as expressed in I Corinthians, let us be thankful for faithful pastors who do excercize godly pastoral care, not desiring to exclude from the table, but truly seeking the welfare of all who would commune. May we also thank God for the long, detailed training these pastors have received, and their continuing education, as they strive to become better under-shepherds, faithfully watching and feeding and caring for our Lord's sheep.
that's not the Reformation model
I've replied below for more space.
mwdooley@comcast.net
But all this missed the larger point. Homosexuals don’t simply want acceptance. They want approval and the removal of any hint that there is something morally suspect about same-sex behavior. Whether you call it “recognition” or “blessing”, it makes little particular difference. Both (if they can in practice be distinguished from each other) fall short of the desired mark. We are wasting our time.
reply to Henry
I think the concern over calling people to personal guilt comes from taking Matthew 7:3 seriously. The other problem is that the Law must always be preached to drive sinners to Christ, and as sinners, we very quickly change that to further hurting sinners and driving them away or it becomes a way of levying punishment. The clearest punishment is social ostracism, and we know from Christ's mission that He came to restore the outcast back to society. Cleansing of the lepers or healing the blind didn't just heal their physical disease, but returned them to the community. Another interesting thing about the end of Romans 1 is that Paul claims that the people have already been punished for their sins. Does any of this mean that we are no longer sinners? Of course not! Nor do I think the word 'brokenness' means that it is not our fault. If the retributive Law is justice, that brokenness is our reception of the penalty in our bodies and lives. However, we must fully abandon that old broken self with the coming of Christ.... "drowning the old Adam daily in the waters of baptism" is the way Luther puts it, I think.
You say that "the unexamined, unrepentant heart of a sinner" cannot and will not seek Christ's mercy. I agree, but with two caveats. 1) we all leave some part of our heart unexamined and remain unrepentant. 2) this is the true power of Christ's mercy-- that He comes to us in our unworthiness. Romans 8:38-39 and Luke 15:1-4 explain this. Note that it takes the Shepherd to bring that lost sheep back into the fold. It is because Christ himself has saved many, that they do not turn the ministry into a self-serving glory, even though they do still live with the old Adam.
comment
reply to Rik
I think you just laid out the argument that Luther and the other Reformers were fighting against. This starts with your view of a pastor as a doctor. The pastor needs to be highly skilled, totally dedicated to God, and of a cut better than most men. That's the model of the RC priests and the Pharisees-- the Pharisees were highly trained in knowing Scripture, dedicated to God, they were literate, and knew exactly what Scripture said concerning purity and other aspects of the law. The RC mindset of the Reformation was the same-- the Church was the Second Estate because in theory the priest was highly skilled, totally dedicated to God and of a cut better than most men. The Reformers didn't just say 'no' to church corruption, but they said 'no' to the entire theory that the priest needed to be highly skilled, totally dedicated to God and of a cut better than most men. That's why Luther speaks of the 'priesthood of all believers', and says that 'every man with his Bible is his own priest'. Even the idea that one small child confessing the Gospel* is greater than all powers, dominions, principalities, popes, etc demonstrates that skill and every other advantage (ancient languages, etc) one may bring to the pastoral office are not requirements for the pastoral office. If anything, these things distract us, as they distracted the Pharisees, from the true requirement for the pastoral office, which is faith in Christ's redeeming death and resurrection. As you said of the disciples is true for us and pastors today: it is in our weakness that God shows His strength.
You say that you wouldn't want a volunteer to do dental work, and liken that to the role of a pastor. But consider who in Scripture is called to proclaim the Kingdom of God: the woman who had 5 husbands, the woman caught in the act of adultery, Bartimaeus, the blind beggar, blind men, lepers. Their actions and vocalized thoughts express that they were unbelievers, yet these were the very people called by Christ Himself. Also consider that Christ routinely ate with sinners and tax collectors-- Scripture doesn't say "repentant sinners" or "sinners-only-in-the-eyes-of-the-Pharisees" but sinners. Christ did not exclude sinners from His table; He actively sought them out. If anything, the model we should be following is to bring Christ's Real Presence in the bread and wine into the midst of sinners and unbelievers for their salvation. Inclusion of the excluded is a very large part of Christ's ministry.
I also think a greater concern with having the Last Supper with a large group is that the chief priests and scribes sought to seize him when the crowds were not around him-- that has nothing to do with the number who were/weren't worthy of Communion or any growth of the church. If the Last Supper had been a crowded affair, it would not have been the Last supper.
*Henry, is this an antinomian idea because nothing is said about the small child first confessing the Law?
Toddler Ordination?
When Debate Among "ture Believers" Hides Tough Questions
Never thought I would be siding with Paul Hinlicky on a Social Ethical matter. Along with good pastoral care, it is a social ethical question he addresses in his openness to recognizing gay civil unions – a recognition of God’s governance in the Kingdom on the Left. But no surprise that a left-wing Democrat like me would have a friendly disagreement with Robert Benne on this range of issues. It is even less of a surprise, though, that these two colleagues exploring schism with the ELCA in accord with the CORE agenda would come to disagreement. That is the history of “true-believing” splinter groups which secede from “impure bodies.” Having demonized the opposition, the “reformers” begin to insist on absolute purity from all their members, purging the impure again and again and finally after enough schisms fading into obscurity. Ever hear of the movements of Carl McIntire and Knut Lunkeberg? If not, it’s because of the pure-believers only syndrome of their “reform” movements. So be careful, Paul, of the implicit threats in Prof. Benne’s comments. Everyone with a liberal socio-political bent needs to be careful that the free-market agenda of the Right will not ultimately be calling the shots in CORE. I’ve already had one of its other admirers warn me of the evils of quotas. Of course it all fits together when you violate the Two-Kingdom Ethic as many CORE proponents have, bracketing appeals to science and the natural law to adjudicate social policies regarding homosexuality and instead in the traditions of American Puritan/Reformed theology righteously quote Scripture to authorize your social ethic. That’s the way the Right engages public policy issues.
Now before readers brand me as one of those Post-Modern pro-ELCA policy sympathizers, read my latest contributions to the Forum and elsewhere. Note the lumps I’ve taken from the Chicago hierarchy for my perceived critiques. Actually I wasn’t criticizing ELCA staff with whom I had dialogue at all; I was just engaging in quests for truth from a Kingdom on the Left perspective. That’s the spirit of the questions that follow.
Speaking of quest for truth, the occasion of the Benne-Hinlicky dialogue raises two brief questions which I am addressing to both of these colleagues, all the respondents to their debate, and to all our CORE-related friends: I just don’t get the continued appeals of CORE officials to Scripture in order to make the case against the ordination of practicing homosexuals. I am still looking for a hermeneutic which explains why be insistent on the authority of texts like Romans 1:26-27 and other pericopies referring to homosexuality, and not be as outraged about all those women preaching (I Timothy 2:10-11), having bare heads (I Cor.11:10-13), all those uppity heirs of slaves (Col. 3:22; Titus 2:9), and the fact that we have actually had divorced Bishops serve in our predecessor bodies (I Timothy 3:1-2). Do we Confessional Lutherans really believe that all that is in Scripture is the Word of God for us?
My second question in view of their disagreement would be to ask both Profs. Hinlicky and Benne and any other CORE members to react (I’m still waiting for a response from Word Alone staff) to Luther’s views on this matter. Surely all the Luther-Scholars associated with the movement have grappled with this text:
My rule is this: One must deal prudently with the laws of Moses for his
rule in marriage matters is of a completely different character than ours...
This is why Moses’ law cannot be valid simply and completely in all
respects with us. We have to take into consideration the character and
ways of our land when we want to make or apply laws and rules, because
our rules and laws are based on the character of our land and its ways and
not on those of the land of Moses… (On Marriage Matters, LW 46:291)
In view of the preceding data, is what to make of gay relationships really all as cut-and-
dried on theological grounds as both sides in our debate say it is? Can somebody help us sort this out by going beyond ideology and internal disputes, by really grappling with the preceding theological and hermeneutical issues along while taking into account scientific findings pertaining to homosexuality, as the Two-Kingdom Ethic mandates us to do? Grappling with those matters might just lead to a kinder, less schismatic, more Confessional Lutheran discourse and outcome
Muddy water
I find it very interesting that Dr. Benne looks for a way to fine-tune Hinlickey's position to make it palatable and thus bridge the gap between the ELCA and Lutheran Core. Even if Lutheran Core is the future for traditionalists, nagging questions persist. This entire debate and division over same-sex relationships and the church's treatment of them has at least distracted ethicists from other compelling ethical issues.
On November 23, 2009, the Austin American-Statesman published a brief item from “wire reports” sources revealing that in 2007, the Roman Catholic Bishop of Rhode Island (Bishop Thomas Tobin) sent U.S. Rep. Patrick Kennedy a letter in 2007 asking him not to receive Holy Communion because of his (Kennedy's) position on abortion.
Clearly, the fact that both Benne and Hinlickey are trying to squeeze out some kind of middle ground to make room for even token tolerance of same-sex relationships without institutionalizing them gives rise to the wider swath of problems with which these and other ethicists should be dealing.
For example, should Lutherans consider the approach taken by Bishop Tobin regarding ethical issues? As a Lutheran pastor, should I unilaterally be able to decide that I should refuse to give communion to someone who: (1) supports abortion, (2) plans to buy another Texas lottery ticket while kneeling at the altar, (3) supports voter ID at the polls even if it disenfranchises poor and elderly ethnic minorities, (4) supports incarcerating children in a barb-wire-fence prison in Taylor, Texas because their parents are in our country seeking political asylum without documentation, (5) refuses to repent despite having given support to an invasion of Iraq despite the subsequent disclosures that there really were no weapons of mass destruction, (6) supports capital punishment, (7) believes that there is no relationship between Christian compassion and governmental financial support for health care for those without adequate health care?
I could build a controversial case for withholding communion in the above seven instances (and more) based on both theology and scripture and using methodology similar to the one used in this same-sex-argument. I posit that this entire scope of same-sex issues is neither less nor more significant than these other ethical and theological matters which theologians and ethicists are now taking great pains to avoid and which (some might argue) they are paid not to avoid. Fifty years from now, should the same-sex issue be the lynchpin identified as the reason for the creation of one of the world's smaller Lutheran groups? Will it be said of us by historians that in 2009 Lutherans strained at the camel and swallowed the gnat?
The manner in which Hinlicky and now Benne seek to tweak the same-sex issue into granularity raises the question of whether or not Lutherans have become preoccupied with divorcing themselves from the real world in which most people now live and the gravitas of the ethical situations in which they now participate. Just watching one Iraq veteran get off the bus with aluminum crutches and prosthetic legs yields a better perspective regarding the full scope of ethical issues which ethicists should be considering.
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