I Think I Want a Divorce
Not from my wife of 35 years, but from my denomination. The grounds of my desire are biblical: infidelity. The covenant we had made was binding: to govern our life together by the Word of God as attested in Holy Scripture as understood by the Lutheran Confessions for mission and ministry in America and throughout the world. It’s partly my fault, I admit. I have long wondered whether my denomination has had some other love at heart, but I looked the other way, busy with my own concerns, not wanting trouble. True, in the controversy at hand, I intervened to argue for a theologically faithful way, which would offer recognition to Christians who have special crosses to bear in the arena of sex, marriage, and the family, yet sustaining the normative teaching of the Word of God. But I have evidently failed to persuade. Now my denomination has come up with a different plan for a new future. Inevitably it changes our relationship; indeed it puts our covenant itself to a vote in August. Now I have to wonder out loud whether it’s all over between us...
Not from my wife of 35 years, but from my denomination. The grounds of my desire are biblical: infidelity. The covenant we had made was binding: to govern our life together by the Word of God as attested in Holy Scripture as understood by the Lutheran Confessions for mission and ministry in America and throughout the world. It’s partly my fault, I admit. I have long wondered whether my denomination has had some other love at heart, but I looked the other way, busy with my own concerns, not wanting trouble. True, in the controversy at hand, I intervened to argue for a theologically faithful way, which would offer recognition to Christians who have special crosses to bear in the arena of sex, marriage, and the family, yet sustaining the normative teaching of the Word of God. But I have evidently failed to persuade. Now my denomination has come up with a different plan for a new future. Inevitably it changes our relationship; indeed it puts our covenant itself to a vote in August. Now I have to wonder out loud whether it’s all over between us.
My denomination still gives lip-service to the article of faithful confession which had bound us together in conscience to the Word of God. In the new Draft Social Statement on Sexuality there is a clear historical description of it.
This church understands marriage as a covenant of mutual promises, commitment, and hope authorized legally by the state and blessed by God. The historic Christian tradition and the Lutheran Confessions have recognized marriage as a covenant between a man and a woman, reflecting Mark 10:6–9: “But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one put asunder.” (Jesus here recalls Genesis 1:27; 2:23–24.) [Lines 502-508]
Every word is true. But they appear in this document as “memories—of the way we used to be,” like in Barbra Streisand’s melancholy song. They are acknowledged historically, not normatively as what the ecumenical Church, and therein the Lutheran Confession, has wanted to say on this perpetually difficult matter of Christian teaching. They are not acknowledged as the clear and decisive text of Holy Scripture which is therefore to inform all our thinking, also today. Cast as mere history, these words of Scripture have the form of godliness, but deny its power.
At stake here is Luther’s foundational claim for the plain sense clarity of Scripture as Word of God for the confessing Church in the world, and whether this principle is now to be abandoned to the shifting whim of votes at assemblies without authority or competence to decide matters of binding church doctrine. A non-papal Church that abandons the clear teaching of Holy Scripture in the form of a binding confession that has stood the test of time has no ground to stand on any more. It becomes whatever it can be conned it into being by those who get to frame the question, as in the present Draft Social Statement.
What would that be? In the present case, what my denomination wants to say is announced several paragraphs later.
It must be noted that some, though not all, in this church and within the larger Christian community, conclude that marriage is also the appropriate term to use in describing similar benefits, protection, and support for same-gender couples entering into lifelong monogamous relationships. They believe that such accountable relationships also provide the necessary foundation that supports trust and familial and community thriving. Other contractual agreements such as civil unions also seek to provide some of these protections and to hold those involved in such relationships accountable to one another and to society. [Lines 588-594, emphasis added]
This is a misleading half-truth, beginning with the haughty words, “this church.” In fact, the Church, including member Churches of the Lutheran World Federation, especially the younger Churches of Africa and Asia, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestant evangelicalism, overwhelmingly dispute this unscriptural revision of the doctrine of marriage, as also many do in the declining and dying liberal Protestant churches of North America. The real voice of the people of God across the world and through the ages seems to matter not at all in this Draft, any more than Holy Scripture as parsed by the Lutheran Confessions. Surely, “this church’s” congregations, if given an honest and secret ballot, would overwhelmingly reject the manipulation of language and meaning involved in calling “marriage” anything other than that relation in Scripture and Confession described above.
But this deafness, if not deceptiveness, seems true to form in the present proposal, which goes on to recommend not only a revisionist understanding of marriage, but a local option ordination, reflecting the polity of a federation of congregations, replacing the union at pulpit and altar to which I once conscientiously pledged myself in a binding confession. “This church” is acting like a sect and predictably is about to turn into a dysfunctional federation of sects. Our union, you could say, is turning into a polygamy. I won’t go along with that.
A child could see that the revisionist view of the sectarian “some” is being promoted in this Draft—in ways subtle (citing Scripture and Confession as history, not as Word of God) and in ways obvious (as the above paragraph gratuitously added, and so privileging this view of the “some,” without adding the opinions of the multitude of “others” who would take exception to it, let alone argue against it). No theological argument expressing reservations about homosexuality even appears in the Draft—so much for respecting the consciences of “others.”
In a document that so rightly and eloquently commends trust as the healthy basis of life together, this kind manipulation (even if unconscious) is doubly disillusioning. I am tired of it. Sweet talk, smooth talk, slick talk, it’s abusive all the same. I see that clearly now, and it is the chief reason why I am thinking that I want a divorce.
Christian teaching on sex, marriage and the family is not a matter of personal ethics (personal behavior is the matter of personal ethics), but it is a matter of binding Church doctrine. We would still be sending our sons and daughters to monasteries and convents, and hoping by their merits to cover for the sinfulness of our marital relations which produced them, were it not so, as anyone knows who has any memory of what Lutheranism once taught on this matter. Of course our conditions today are different, but no one with intellectual, not to say spiritual integrity can, as this Draft Social Statement shamelessly argues, dualistically separate the Gospel of salvation from definite social forms in God’s beloved creation on the way to redemption.
We just don’t see things the same way anymore, it seems. As I see it, in this ugly and violent culture of sexual license today, where the divinely blessed institution of lifelong marriage of man and woman is under economic, political, and ideological assault from every side, a genuinely Lutheran Church would bravely take up its inherited doctrine as something binding on the conscience contra mundum (against the whole world), if need be. It would also on this basis call for appropriate civil protections, not only for gay and lesbians persons, but for all the broken forms of family life struggling against internally dehumanizing economic ideals and now also external deprivations (after the burst of the financial bubble) that rip apart the fabric of human community. A true Lutheran Church would dare to teach the Word of God concretely, knowing with Luther that “if you take away assertions, you take away Christianity.” A genuinely Lutheran church would not disingenuously refrain from teaching—even in face of sincerely confused consciences holding contradictory opinions—I say, disingenuously, because the imaginary restraint of this Draft Social Statement is hard to understand except as a ploy to keep those “others” from bolting when the local option for irregular ordination is finally authorized.
In short, putting the very matter of Christian teaching up for a vote by falsely representing the matter at stake as so many ethical options of sincere people gives away the store. It is no longer a Church which acts like this. It has mutated into something else. And that, I fear, is why I am going to be talking with my lawyer.
Luther’s conscience was bound to the Word of God, not to other consciences, no matter how many, no matter how high and mighty, and certainly no matter how erring. Let there be no mistake about this whatsoever. A polity which puts up church doctrine for a vote at a biennial assembly is itself and as such the problem. This Draft Social Statement’s proposal merely exposes what an empty bottle “this church” has become.
In response, this church draws on the foundational Lutheran understanding that the baptized are called to discern God’s love in service to the neighbor. In our Christian freedom, we therefore seek responsible actions that serve others and do so with humility and deep respect for the conscience-bound beliefs of others. We understand that, in this discernment about ethics and church practice, faithful people can and will come to different conclusions about the meaning of Scripture and about what constitutes responsible action. We further believe that this church, on the basis of “the bound conscience,” will include these different understandings and practices within its life as it seeks to live out its mission and ministry in the world. [Lines 629-636, emphasis added]
It is certainly true that in a democratic, pluralist society, good people will sincerely come to different conclusions about all sorts of things and as a result will have to struggle to live together respectfully. It is also true that in a democratic, pluralist society, decisions will be made, policy will be determined, some will win and others will lose. Thus it is also true that in a democratic, pluralist society, freedoms of conscience, of religion, of speech and of association allows losers to opt out in varying ways, especially when the decision touches on conscience.
Why should we stay together? What is the point? We are like four people in an auto, each wanting to drive in a different direction. Be assured, someone will control the wheel! The Draft does not assert Christian teaching on marriage as something binding for the holy society (not the modern, democratic, pluralist State) but the Church of Christ (within it). In it, the Lord says, “but not of it.” Instead we are treated to a description of the range of opinion in the ELCA on the neuralgic question of same-sex relations, concluding with a dishonest and manipulative plea that we stay together no matter what. In thinking along these lines, the Draft Social Statement betrays how utterly secularized its thinking process is, yet grasping sentimentally after Christian unity, when its basis in the true confession of the Word of God has been discarded.
No! The cost of staying together is being and so also acting as Church. If we stay together on the basis which the Draft Social Statement proposes, we cease to be Church. And that is why, whether I want it or not, no matter how it turns out, the proposed vote itself is a prescription for divorce. None of us need “this church” to enjoy the rights and privileges of free citizens. But I with many others took vows at Confirmation, and special vows at Ordination, of fidelity to the Word of God as understood in the Lutheran Confessions, so that I could live and work as a servant of the Holy Community in union with all other pastors at the altar and in the pulpit.
My denomination apparently no longer shares this understanding of what it means to be Church. You might say we have just “grown apart.” You might say our union has become a hollow shell in which the love has died.
The extended analogy with divorce finally breaks down. To the extent that it holds, I will officially stick with my Gomer: separation, not legal divorce, hoping against hope that she returns to the ties of binding confession of God’s Word that really unite the struggling, suffering Church on earth in battle against powers and principalities on behalf of sinning and suffering creatures. To the extent that the analogy does not hold, however, I am not leaving until they throw me out and show the world just how little the supposed baptismal unity really means to them. But in staying I will protest, bear witness against, summon others do likewise, and in every way defy this devious attempt to snare conscience and bind in chains the Word of God.
Paul R. Hinlicky is the Tice Professor in Lutheran Studies at Roanoke College in Salem, Virginia.
Reply to Eric
Women's Ordination to the Presbyterate
As an Orthodox priest who once was a Lutheran Pastor, my heart goes out for you. I could be wrong, but what you are looking for (namely an evangelical-catholic tradition that allows women's ordination but forbids norming homosexuality) will be nigh impossible to form and sustain.
But my prayers are with you. May God guide you to find peace in His Church.
Reply to Father Daniel
I can grant that whether or not the ordination of women proves faithful to the gospel is to some degree at stake in this controversy, but only if we simultaneously see that this controversy is really not about homosexuality as such (it could and in my view ought rather to be about the massively more damaging heterosexual sins of infidelity, divorce and child abuse), but about sin and grace, law and gospel, and a merciful life together in the corpus mixtum which anticipates the beloved community of God. The editor of Lutheran Forum has posted a solid little piece on this question on this webside to which I refer readers.
I guess my response to you has to be: it is the church itself and as such which is impossible to sustain by human powers. The church is the Spirit's work. We would all be better off if we acknowledged our helplessness. Those who think that Catholicism or Orthodoxy are not also bleeding, severed limbs of the Body of Christ deceive themselves in exactly the same way as the haughty "this church-ers" of the ELCA.
Our Helplessness
Please forgive me if my last statement sounded arrogant. It was not meant that way. Rather it was a sincere desire that "the wisdom from above" (of which James the Apostle speaks about) would descend upon you. Indeed that He would descend upon us all "without measure".
From reading your blog you seem to me to be a humble, earnest seeker of truth and love. Having not read your works previously, forgive me if I bring up a redundant subject. Have you done much study on the Initiation Rites of Baptism, Chrismation and the Eucharist? A great book to read on that is J.D.C. Fisher's work entitled "Baptism in the Medieval West". Written by a Roman Catholic Scholar in the last century, it meticulously chronicles our shared history in the West regarding these Rites.
How does this relate to the topic under discussion? It may be that a good first step in healing the "bleeding, severed, limbs of the Body of Christ" would be to look at how the undivided Church of the first millenium administered the Body and Blood to the Faithful; including to the "least", namely infants. Oftentimes we theologize from a philosophical/theological perspective as both our start and end point. But possibly the Eucharist rightly administered in connection with baptism and chrismation may indeed be a better starting point for reflection. For when these are seen and received as pure gift, administered to infants who are icons of human weakness and frailty; then our human rationalizations cease. The Spirit is revealed as the one who calls, sanctifies and keeps us in the one, true faith; the mystery of the Church "without spot or wrinkle" is manifiest
Of course our communio sanctorum is more multi-faceted these Rites alone, for these are but the beginning. After this, a recovery of ascetical disciplines of fasting (witness the Didache), a fresh appreciation for the role of celibate vocations, true almsgiving to the poor, etc. all are needed in the West if we are to begin to heal from what you have so aptly describe as a "divorce".
Peace my Brother
Reply to Father Daniel II
Adult Baptism as Normative
Hope your Lenten preparations are going well. I thought it was interesting and enlightening that you mentioned adult baptisms as the norm of the early church. If by that you implied that a great many people came to the Church via catachesis and the initiation rites; then would that the Holy Spirit call many to the faith in our day! On the other hand, if you meant that infants/little children were not initiated into the Church via Baptism; that is interesting indeed.
If you hold to the latter, at the risk of asking you to post something you have already addressed in the past; would you possibly share a few words on what has led you to this conclusion?
For what it is worth, my best extra-biblical arguement for infant baptism is that if the NT Church did not practise it; then either generations two, three, or four would have had a knock-down drag out fight over such an innovation! Witness the many words written by the second century apologists over gnosticism.
But despite good, reliable patristic sources as Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Justin Martry and Theophilus of Antioch; we have not record of such an innovation. And by around 250 AD we have Cyprian describing a suckling baby partaking of communion; this reception of Christ in the Eucharist presupposes baptism.
Finally, whatever side of this issue one falls down on, all who "desire to live godly in Christ Jesus" surely can sense that the promised persecution is coming. Indeed it is already here! Just yesterday I was reading that a Lutheran pastor has been sentenced to a year of jail in Bravaria for his equating the silence of many on the scourge of abortion to the aquiescence to Nazi death camps. I guess having a face (which most fetuses do fairly early on) is not enough to mirror their personhood to our fallen world. Thank God that He does not define our personhood in terms of our ability to interact with others; for we are all a mystery that reflects the One who made us. We are persons by virtue of conception; we need nourishment (that surpasses intellectual knowledge) from day one.
Reply on Adult Baptism
Thank you for the follow-up
Many thanks for the follow up. It takes time to respond to the myriad of questions on a blog like this. Your labor is not in vain.
Fr Daniel Hackney
Above blog
Reply to Sandy
Hinlicky Article
Reply to Bob
correction
Church vote
divorce
Over the years there have been changes in our relationship -- when our children were born after 8 years of marriage; when they left home to go to college and we were empty-nesters; when one moved back home (twice) when he was out of work; and I imagine there will be changes in our relationship in our retirement years. All these change sin our corporate life has not caused us to divorce.
We have learned to live together with our differences and the changes that have taken place in our individual and corporate lives. Divorce is easy. Living together with our differences and changes is what's hard.
Reply to Brian
Divorce
All marriages have their agreements and disagreements but committment and love, devotion, carry them through.
However, there are some events that occur in a marriage that are very difficult to ovecome. They are past the normative challenges of what can take place in married life. One of those events is adultery. One of the partners is unfaithful while the other is faithful. How long can they continue in that circumstance? Especially if the adultery is ongoing. It is likely that the marriage will end. A married couple may survive adultery with repentance, counseling and a great deal of effort by both parties. But, the unfaithful partner must return and stay committed to faithful ways.
Scripture says an adulterous person is unstable in all of their ways, so we see instability now at work in the ELCA. Faithfulness and trust must be reestablished for a relationship to survive. This is not the case with the ELCA. The ELCA has taken "another lover" and apparently intends to keep and extend the relationship for the future.
I am saddened by the recent events of this week.
The word of God and the right to rule by the Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, has been questioned and denied. Sola scriptura has ceased to be in the ELCA so where will direction come from?
Rev. Nancy Drew
Lutheran EPC
Its infidelity
The ELCA and I can disagree on things and still be together. However the "marriage" between me and the ELCA is that it will remain faithful to the word of God and so will I. The ELCA can have a difference of opinion from me and as long as they can at least attempt to defend it with scripture then I can accept that. Even if I think the way that they are using the scripture is mis-applied.
However this is totally different. The ELCA has not even dared to defend this idea with scripture, nor put out an intelligent reason as to why a doctrine as old as the church itself should suddenly be changed.
If this passes I'm going to leave the ELCA because it will have become completly a church of the world. Even if my parish is conservative (which it is) and attempts to follow God's word faithfully, a church of God can not exist in unity with a church of the world.
As far as I'm concerned as far as the ELCA has gone if it crosses this line, it will have become a church of the world.
Comment to Kirk
Reply to Sarah
Divorce or remaining in a broken relationship
Reply to Gary
Reply to Paul Hinlicky
Bending without breaking?
Reason may be a 'most excellent gift' of God.
I am wondering how well indeed we *know* what Luther or his Wittenberg peer's might say on the issue presented? Currently reading The Genius of Luther's Theology [Kolb & Arand] I found the following to be instructive:
@p.73
...Another good example occurred in 1535 and was
'the kind of case that Wittenberg's theologians dealt with constantly, once the Reformation did away with the old episcopal family courts in the 1520s.' In this particular case a man asked his pastor for permission to marry his cousin. In fact, however, 'the couple was already living together and had a child.' When the pastor asked the faculty at Wittenberg for advice, it responded by acknowleging that while the Scriptures does not forbid such a marriage (witness the patriarchs!), traditionally this was not the sort of thing allowed in Germany. The professors suggested that the man be thrown in jail for three weeks and after that might marry his cousin. 'This way, people will not follow his example, but the child and mother will have a husband and father.' Citations omitted.
I do not think it good for the human creature to live alone -- God created us as relational beings!
I seem to be able to bend more then you without breaking as I try and discern God's will in this matter.
Peace to you.
Reply to Steven I
Steven, in principle I cannot and will not try to discern God's will apart from the external Word of the Scriptures; you may wish too, but that is "enthusiasm" and it puts you outside of the historical Lutheran consensus. No hard feelings, but you and others who think like you ought to have the intellectual and spiritual integrity to recognize that and migrate to a denomination which approves of such a procedure theologically.
Bending without breaking?
Peace to you.
I find it odd that you did not wish to admit it perplexing that the Wittenberg faculty would make a reply as they did. Indeed, in a blog appearing elsewhere on this website (authored by Rev. Benne or Rev. Braaten I believe the example of pre-marital couples living together is used). I'm not quite sure how I should respond to your accusation that I am an 'enthusiast.' I thought my query was simple indeed: What allowed the Wittenberg peers to answer in the manner they did? I don't see your reply to me as a doubting of my reporting of the history -- so are you implying that they (the Wittenberg faculty) are also guilty of enthusiasm? Can you provide any insight to their decision? Now you may think that is a very unfair question, but you seem to be able to provide much insight into the Draft Social Statement on Sexuality?
What is my interpretation of the anecdote? [I do not read Kolb and Arend's as offering the factual matter anecdotally!]
I really did not mean to offer any interpretation -- the comment that I made that God created us as relational beings. That statement stands independently and was not offered as a ratio of the Wittenberg's faculties decision.
The fact remains, I was highly surprised by the Wittenberg's faculty decision -- but, yes, I do think it may be instructive for us today.
I am troubled that you think I try and discern God's Will apart from His Word. I don't see it that way at all. Let's exchange the hot-button topic of sexuality with women's ordination. The Mo. Synod (in accord with the Roman Catholic Church and others) says that the denial of ordination to women is based on God's Word. Yet, I believe that many (even including yourself?) feel thats a mis-interpretation of Scripture. Is one persons misinterpretation another's enthusiasm?
I don't think so but I ask you that in all sincerity.
Finally brother, let me end with this:
And when here on earth the tragic case occurs, which happens again and again where the question of truth is earnestly engaged, that one confession of faith is set against another, conscience against conscience, then we must leave the decision to Him who in the Last Judgement will finally separate truth from error. We do not know God's judgements, and can not and may not anticipate them. Also, when we must speak the damnamus ('we condemn') against a false teaching, God's forgiving grace may bring the erring sinner into the church triumphant, where there is no more untruth. On the other hand, this door will be shut to many a one who has done battle for the truth in perfect orthodoxy, but has forgotten that he too was only a poor sinner who lives only by forgiving grace. WE CONFESS Herman Sasse @pp57-58
In the old years of my age, I am not ready to say that God may not indeed call gay persons in committed relationships to the clergy. The church, qua church, certainly has the right to make a good order argument why this should not be the case. I guess if I understood the women's ordination issue better I would have a better grasp on the gay issue?
I will go and read your article on Recognition versus Blessings. I have not yet -- but already I have a question:
Do you think we can make God bless anything God does not want to bless?
Replu to Steven III
I am speaking for myself, not Benne or Braaten.
Please note that Wittenberg faculty apparently decided that the man should still be punished, and the lesser of evils was to keep intact the de facto or common law marriage rather than to break it up. Along such lines I too am willing for the Church to recognize, but not bless exclusive unions which intend life-long faithfulness for Christians who are gay or lesbian. But even the question of ordination of such persons would have to wait for a serious time of discernment, if such a policy were adopted.
The editor of Lutheran Forum has just written a blog on your question about women's ordinaiton, and I refer you to that.
Finally, on enthusiasm: Scripture itself can be read either as letter which kills or as Spirit which gives life. One has to discern the mind of the Author, in light of the whole of the Scripture's testimony in order to read the Bible as the Holy Scriptures, i.e., as the work of the Holy Spirit. But enthusiasm, in experiencing the letter which kills in the Bible (for example, its No to homosexuality) simply wants to set the plain sense of the text aside in favor of new, contemporary revelations or ratiocination. This is the procedure which is not reconcilable with historic Lutheranism.
I said what I said to you about such enthusiasm on the basis of the words you had written. We cannot get around the Bible's plain sense No to homosexuality. We can live with our brokenness on the basis a truthful repentance and word of mercy that surpasses that judgment on our brokenness. What my opponents in the controversy argue is that homosexuality is a creative good blessed by God which we should recognize. That proposition is what is at issue in this controvsery. It is church-dividing, as we shall in fact see in what unfolds.
Believe me, I am sorry to be the bearer of this bad news.
Reply to Rev. Hinlicky
Peace to you.
You write:
What my opponents in the controversy argue is that homosexuality is a creative good blessed by God which we should recognize.
Is that the correct understanding of the arguments advanced? I don't think so. But first can I examine your belief on heterosexual sex? Aging has given me the opportunity to read much of Luther's writings. I find his interpretation of 'in sin did my mother conceive me.' to be straightforward. [Psalm 51] I don't doubt the sinfulness of homosexual OR heterosexual sex. But unlike our Roman Catholic friends, we Lutheran have never declared our ordained ones to be 'better' when it comes to not sinning. Luther certainly, as I read him, does not want to commit any Nestorian heresy!
Of course, it would be so much nicer to be able to dialog in person with you. But I noted that you made no comment on whether God could indeed be calling these people to the office of the Holy Ministry? Mind you I'm talking about the personal aspect of the call? What is your thought on that aspect?
I do not understand the argument as being advanced in the same manner you do. It would be tragic indeed, if this division is due to reason now be using as Frau Hulda, the devil's whore -- to inaccurately reflect an understanding of each side such that the body of Christ is wounded.
Certainly the argument is not that our ordained ones are without sin. I'm sure we are agreed there.
I hear one side simply reiterating what Luther has us affirm in the Creed. That God has made us -- individually and located us individually. He has created some gay (I believe!). Believing that he has created some gay I think (for good orders sake) we need to apply the same rule for all!
I am troubled by your need to justify your position by an appeal that we 'not lead others astray?' I've heard, first-hand, sermons given by the same people you now seek to deny -- and the sermons were as good as anything Walther could write (a correct exposition of law and gospel). The disciples were concerned one time when 'outsiders' were seemingly running amok -- and Jesus told them to 'cool it!' Don't worry about that! But see contra your own ratio, that you are fearful such will 'leading others astray which is why we need the discipline of dogmatic theology in the life of the Church.' [Which is why Sasse's warning to those who battle in truth for the perfect orthodoxy is so poignant!]
And, not in jest, I'm not so sure I agree with your proffer on the *why* of dogmatic theology in the life of the Church! The 'Church' does not save! The 'Bible' does not save! Christ saves!
Even in the 'invisible church' is not the only thing that matters is that the Holy Ghost has called me by the gospel, enlightened and sanctifies me even as..." I just prefer not to elevate dogmatics to something which it is not!
So tell me, do you think it possible that you are mis-understanding the opposition? And they mis-understand you? Are we agreed that is the devil's work? What do we do about it?
Luther, I think, would ask if we have put the best construction on everything? Have we? I'm fearful that we have not. Reading the responses does not quell my fear.
Reply to Steven IV
You write: "He has created some gay (I believe!). Believing that he has created some gay I think (for good orders sake) we need to apply the same rule for all!"
This articulates precisely what is in dispute in this controversy. I do not believe what you believe. We do not believe the same thing. We have a church-dividing disagreement on a article of faith. I venture to claim that my belief is the belief deriving from Genesis 1:26-28 and Jesus' evangelical and authoritative citation and interpretation of this text. You appeal to your own experience and ratiocination, over the plain sense of the Scripture. You call me a dogmatist for this basis of my belief, as I call you an enthusiast for yours. So be it. God will settle the dispute between, I trust, in way that is merciful to us both. But in the interim I can see no way to proceed together as if we were one in faith. We are not.
To your question: do I misunderstand the opposition? I am basing what I say on texts, on what is actually written. I do not presume to read anyone's heart. My intervention in the cause is based strictly on the draft Social Statement. You are the one who ignores the express words of Scripture, of the draft Social Statement, and of my blogs, and in their place offers ad hominem psychoanalysis.
Stick to the issue, and we can continue to debate. Argue about what the draft Social Statement proposes and we can perhaps make progress. But I am really not interested in listening to speculations about what must be going on in my heart or anyone elses.
Blessing?
Can you further clarify what it is you mean when you state:
We just have no authority to bless as marriage other than the blessing that God pronounces in Gen. 1:26-28.
It is my understanding that the panel, citing a lack of concensus, did not speak on whether to adopt rites for blessing same-sex couples?
Am I misunderstanding the referecned document?
Peace,
Steve Petty
Reply to Steven II
The Social Statement sets aside the text of Holy Scripture. It is in self-contradiction when it acknowledges this foregoing as the truth about about Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, but then allows the fourth position on blessing same-sex unions as 'marriage,' i.e. as a good creature of God, indistinguishable theologically from Gen. 1 26:28. This is patent non-sense, if we still hold to the law of non-contradiction as the logical fundament of human discourse. 'Male and female created He them' cannot by any intellectual somersault be made to read 'male and male' or 'female and female.'
Citing 'lack of consensus' as the Social Statement did is a failure of nerve and a sin of omission. The Social Statement had an moral and spiritual obligation to rule the fourth option out of bounds for a confessionally obligated Church. It did not, and now a full scale ecclesiological crisis is looming.
I too want a divorce
Using your analogy of divorce,(I know: all analogies ultimately fail, but) would you stay in a marriage in which you had to protect your kids from your spouse? I long ago redirected our congregation's youth ministry away from the ELCA's national youth gatherings. I suspect shortly I will have to insure that we don't use any of the Sunday School or adult ed materials produced by AF. Can you stay in a marriage to someone from whom you have to protect the rest of the members of the family? It is one thing for the clergy to honor the vows we made to the church at the time of our ordination, but what happens when it is time for us to change congregations? It is highly unlikely that the orthodoxy we teach will continue when we are replaced by the "company men and women" being produced by the seminaries today. If we don't lead in ways that make provision for that, have we not failed to keep our vows? God help us: is it possible that divorce may be more faithful than not divorcing?
Reply to Robert
Of course, we should to the best of our ability protect the children, and separate to the degree necessary to do that already now. But neither should we shoot ourselves in the foot in the process, like the old hot-heads who formed the AELC and handed the institution over to the Preus gang without a battle. We are members in good standing of this voluntary organization, with all attendent rights and privileges, and moreover, will be liberated spiritually from regarding 'this church' as anything other than a pension and benefit plan, if the package passes. That opens up new possibilties.
In principle, however, we should move that the fourth option on homosexuality as divine gift and blessing in marriage be deleted from the social statement, on the grounds that this is in manifest contradiction to what the Social Statement itself acknowledges as the historic understanding of marriage in Scripture and Lutheran Confessions. If that motion fails, delegates should leave the assembly in protest that it has no competence to vote on a changes in binding church doctrine. Let the fragmentation of the ELCA begin. The perpetrators of it are the drafters.
Divorce
How can one be the pastor of a church which is expected to give offering money to the larger church, when the larger church (the ELCA) supports much that is contrary to Scripture?
Why should you even consider my words? I do not have a string of degrees after my name, I am neither a professor, nor am I currently a member of an ELCA church. I was baptised in and LCA church, and even remember the old Service Book and Hymnal. Over the years I have been disappointed by many decisions made by the LCA and the ELCA. I pray that the LORD of the church would lead the church in that way He would have it go. We need to conform to the will of God, not vice versa. I am a lifelong Lutheran, and thank God for His revealed Word. I fully subscribe to the Lutheran Confessions because they are a correct interpretation of Biblical doctrine. I do have a question for you: If we were to look at St. Matthew 5:29-30 as though it were referring to the ELCA corporally, how could we rightly understand it? Jesus' words: "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (30) And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." This is the Word of the Lord.
How important is unity at all costs in the ELCA? Is the purpose of remaining united to continue to be touted as the largest Lutheran church in North America? When some in that church seek to trump God's Word with societal opinions and values, is it appropriate to sever a part of the body? St. Matthew 18:15-17 would be appropriate first, but would a split in a church be such a bad thing if it were to protect God's people from those who would lead them astray with false teachings and practices? My study Bible has the following text note: "5:29-30 Jesus is not teaching self-mutilation, for even a blind man can lust. The point is that we should deal as drastically with sin as necessary." (CSSB, p.1457, CPH). In wanting to be accepting of others, is the ELCA dealing as drastically with sin as necessary when it pays a million dollars to produce such a study and recommendation that makes the obvious conclusion that the ELCA is not walking together when it comes to their positions on where God has called His church to stand regarding human sexuality, and goes on to refute God when He calls a sin a sin. And don't forget the call to unity no matter what. I mean this quite seriously and humbly when I say that my prayers are with you in the ELCA. Kyrie Eleison. Christe Eleison. Kyrie Eleison.
Reply to Rik
I have to stay in a potentially heterodox church as in the place where God has placed me, penitently, knowing that I have failed to persuade (thus far) colleagues of error. When they kick me out, then I have to leave. In the meantime, I will not take error sitting down, but rather I will not only refuse to send mission dollars on to those who abuse their office, but will urge others likewise to withhold.
Having said that, are you so sure that the theologically correct way to speak about homosexual orientation and relations is sin? It seems to me that in the NT divorce is far more often and explicitly named sin than homosexuality. It seems to me as well that in Romans 1:18ff Paul describes homosexuality more as a consequence, not of individual sin, but of unversal idolatry, a kind of disorder that befalls some of us along side many other disorders, as a result of the universal loss all of us suffer of our primordial fear, love and trust in God above all things. Disorder, rather than sin, I think, is the right way to think about this.
It is not wrong in my view that the ELCA has urgently asked about a more evangelical and pastoral approach to ministry with and for homosexual persons, at least for those who do not chose to be gay or lesbian, and have to play, so to say, with the cards they have been dealt. What we cannot do, any more than when we remarry divorced persons, is say that this is God's perfect will for His children. But in a fallen world, God is merciful and works with us, as He finds us, on the road to redemption. We can, as I have argued, recognize, but not bless Christians who are homosexual, when they ask the community of faith for its love and support, turning away from the reckless promiscuity of the so-called Gay lifestyle. But I also want to see of such fellow Christians a clear witness that what matters to them is Christ and His church, not social approval of their sexual orientation. We are still very much in a process of discernment about that.
Reply to Paul Hinlicky
I read your words about those of a homosexual orientation, and hear I want to explore whether our different thoughts are a matter of semantics or not. If I were regularly tempted with homosexual thoughts, would I therefore be a homosexual? Some would say "yes." I would say "no." I would not take ownership of that label. As a Christian, I have been made a "new creation." "The old is gone. Behold, the new has come." We all have our crosses to bear, and for some of them it is of a sexual nature. Jesus was tempted in every way which is common to man, but did not sin. If he were tempted with homosexuality, would that make him a homosexual? Of course not! He rejected each temptation, as He did during those forty days following His baptism. While we have been poisoned with original sin through our parents, Adam and Eve, we do not always fight off every temptation successfully. God has made His power available to me. Yet, no matter what sin I give into, I find myself crawling back to him on my knees, saying the equivilent to "O almighty God, merciful Father, I, a poor, miserable sinner, confess unto Thee all my sins and iniquities with which I have ever offended Thee and justly deserved Thy temporal and eternal punishment. But I am heartily sorry for them and sincerely repent of thrm, and I pray Thee of Thy boundless mercy and for the sake of the holy, innocent, bitter sufferings and death of Thy beloved Son, Jesus Christ, to be gracious and merciful to me,a poor, sinful being." An for me it's not mere words--I mean every breath of it. I meditate on the words of Psalm 51 "Be merciful to me according to your unfailing love, according to your great compassion..." And David's words become mine as well. But I also rejoice in God's absolution, even if I'm having trouble forgiving myself. He said it, that settles it, I believe it. Should I accept a title to refer to myself which describes what sinful thoughts plague me? My answer is "no." In the words of my confirmation verse, "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself to me." The old Rik has been drowned in Basptismal waters, even if He accomplished it through the mode of "sprinking." By water and the Word, it was not the quantity of water that made my baptism efficatious, but rather the Word of God. And daily I die to sin and emmerge alive as a new Rik in Christ Jesus. I am thankful for all God did for me in His MERCY, and I bear fruit because He changed me. I do good works (including unplanned ones) out of thankfulness to God, and I seek to use the third use of the law to please Him in my life. "Domine dirige nos." Now, if I were tempted to gossip, how could I be a gossip? If I were tempted to gluttony, how could I be a glutton? If I were tempted with lust for someone of the same gender, how could I be a homosexual? I am a redeemed man, bought with the great price of the blood of the Lamb. My temptations do not make me who I am. God who in Christ died for us WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS...I will only take ownership of whatever name or title He places on me. The world, the devil, or even my sinful flesh may tempt me to call myself something which tries to resurrect my old Adam in an unholy way, but I will have none of that! I am a new creation. I am a son of God and an heir, having been grafted on to His tree of life. To God alone be the glory! To your point in the Romans passage, yes, I see homosexuality as a consequence, and a disorder, but also an abomination. A church dare not take what God rebukes and escalate it to a place of honor. How can a church body have the audacity to tell God He's wrong? Where were the folks at Higgins road, and at the various synod headquarters, and the pastors and church at large when God laid the foundations of the earth? Did they council God in creation? In planning our redemption? In sanctification? "Let God be God and every man a liar!" Is sin a disorder? Is a disorder sin? If I fail to hit the mark have I not sinned (hamartia)? Thorns in the flesh aside, may God bring healing to this world, and once more bring order out of disorder. May He use His people to be salt and light to this dying world. May we reflect the Light of Christ in this pitch black world of sin and death, and may He use broken vessels like you and I to accomplish His purposes to His glory until He comes again! May we help those who are adulterers, and tax-collectors, and homosexuals, and crooked CEOs, and Samaritans, and Mexicans, and pharasees who come under cover of night. May we share the Great News of the Messiah to gamblers, child molesters, those who cheat on their income tax, those who cheat on their spouse (with whom they are one flesh), and so many more...may we tell them through our words and actions of what God has done for them, convicting them with God's Law, and emancipating them with His Holy Gospel, and let us be church. But let us never condone what God finds abominable. May we conform to His will, to His image. "Do not conform any longer to the patterns of this world, but be ye transformed..." Paul Hinlicky: Are you so sure God's will for you is that you stay in a "potentially heterodox church?" I question this, because as a father gives good gifts to his children, so much more does our Heavenly Father give good gifts to us. I ask that you at least pray about it. I guess it comes down to what kind of a martyr you're going to be (check the etymology): Will you be a witness, or will you die for your ELCA even if God wants you to live for Him? "To live is Christ, to die is gain." My suggestion is don't be the stoic who feels obliged to go down with the ship as a display of "honor." God calls you to be a witness. It's the Holy Spirit's job to apply your witness to reaching others. If your witness has effect, as it did for the people of Ninevah, praise the Lord! If it falls upon deaf ears, seek God's will, not whatever is easiest, most comfortable, etc. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I hope this assists you as you think through the ordeal. Signed, your doulos in Christ, -Rik.
Reply to Rik II
The eloquent case you make for classical Lutheran Law-Gospel theology --not the ersatz, ethically antinomian, Marcionite theology of American afficiandos of Harnack, Elert, and lesser lights-- is a voice that in my view is sorely lacking in the ELCA as a result of the schism in American Lutheranism that occured during the Preus years. In a state of schismatic separation, however, no church body is whole and orthodox.
Think of the sub-evangelical and sectarian practices of the LCMS, for example: requiring an historically literal Jonah and the whale, for instance, or a six-day creation 5000 years ago; or, denying ordination to competent women; or, refusing to recognize degrees of fellowship with other Christian churches; or, the toleration of Holocaust deniers in its ranks; or, the promotion of entertainment evangelism, or alas, must I go on? For me, leaving the ELCA would be out of the frying pan into the fire. So until God shows me another way, I must man my station.
But let me turn the question back on you. Are you so sure that your brand of classical Lutheranism is all there is to being 'orthodox?' Isn't there something sinful and tragic about the breaches of the 16th century? Must we not all recognize that in a divided Church in contradiction to Christ's prayer in John 17, we are all broken and bleeding, none of us whole, all of us lacking?
Concretely, I had written that the ELCA, for all its confusion and error, is not wrong to have engaged the question of better ministry with and for gay and lesbian persons. In my view, to simply deny, as you seem to do, in the name of the new creation, the here and now reality of homosexuality gets us nowhere and is itself suspect as a kind of realized eschatology or perfectionism which would be more at home in Roman Catholicism than in Lutheranism. That doesn't make it wrong, necessarily. But here is what I think.
Somethings in this life are broken and can't be repaired until all things are made new, the new creation is ours by faith and not sight, our righteousness for the most part consists in the forgiveness of sins, and in light of the foregoing, the psychological fact of same-sex attraction is as spontaneous and compelling for at least many gays and lesbians as is heterosexual attraction for the vast majority of us. Given this, we have Christian freedom to recognize this disordered reality and cover it up with the costly mercy of the Lord who was made to be sin, so that in HIm we might become the righteousness of God, not least in providing a truly safe place for all sorts of wounded, broken, imperfect people.
So perhaps you are right that I am tempted by the ELCA's sins by staying with my Gomer; on the other hand, are you not also tempted by your church body's sins of separatism, of self-righteous superiority, of lovelessness? Isn't it best for us all to see that God, like Sampson of old in the pagan temple, is pulling down the walls on the corruption of Christianity in America, that we must endure this episode of wrath, and wait for the promised resurrection from these ruins?
Response to Hinlicky response to Rik
Out of the Frying Pan, Into the Fire
"This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'The LORD is our God.'" -Zech. 13:9 NIV.
Maybe "into the fire" isn't so bad, when its God's refining fire purifying us. It kind of reminds me of Psalm 1 where it compares the wicked to "chaff that the wind blows away", yet the righteous are compared to "a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither." May the ruach of God blow away the chaff and restore His church.
Dr. Hinlicky, I thank you for the opportunities I've had to converse with you. I also thank you for your inner desire for unity in the church of Christ.
No, I am not pretending that Zechariah had a.D. 21st Century Lutheranism in mind when he penned those words quoted above. Yet, while God desires unity, sometimes He has accepted less than unity for the sake of a remnant. Perhaps you might choose to quote from Jesus' prayer as recorded in St. John's account of the Gospel 17:20ff. "My prayer is not for them alone [cf v.11]. I pray also for those who will beieve in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you..." We need to desire unity in the church of Jesus Christ, that is, the "body of Christ." The questions we would do well to ask (in my humble opinion) are: 1) What is true unity? 2)Who brings about this unity? I don't believe these questions are out of line.
1) What is true unity? You can probably guess the qualifier "true" is in their for a reason. I am making it obvious that there is true unity and false unity. What are some examples of true unity? Acts 2:42-47 (particularly v. 44) comes to mind. "They had everything in common." Does this refer only to material goods? Considering the context of Peter's sermon, and v.37 ("they were cut to the heart...") I would contend that they were sharing more than "posessions and goods" and breaking bread. The apostle Paul wrote to the Church in Phillipi "If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my love complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves." He continued with "Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others." (Phil. 2:1-4 NIV) and taught that our attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus's attitude (explained in the next six verses of this early Christian hymn). This is what I consider to be true unity. False unity is when people claim to be united, but very little unite this group of individuals. A name or title could be a shared title (eg. "Lutheran") yet if you empty the name of its meaning to be more inclusive and far-reaching, does the term retain any real meaning? For the sake of group names, perhaps its best to stick with operational definitions which are clearly defined (eg. Lutherans-those Christians who hold to the beliefs contained in the Lutheran Confessions, recorded in the Book of Concord). Another sign of false unity is when documents and agreements are written in ambiguous language so different people can understand the same document differently. It gives the impression of unity but lacks truthful agreement. I believe Scripture is clear in pointing us to true unity. sccept no substitutes!
2) Who brings about this unity? Lutherans should not have difficulty on this one. Remember your Catechism? "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith." Now check out this next paragraph: "In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith." Luther's Small Catechism, 1986 tr. CPH, Explanation to the Third Article of the (Apostles') Creed.
Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit (God) who unites His church. God may work through human beings at times, but it is not accomplished by people pushing their agendas and trying to do God's work for Him. God's Word has the power to strip us of our false views, and correct us. He can "humble the proud." If God's truth can be pictured in the center, and people of various walks are scattered across the field, unity is achieved, not by creating a circus tent large enough to cover all the scattered people, calling that group of people "united" (in name only). Rather, you may need to retain a teaching, and discard an erronious one, and I may need to discard a different erroneous teaching, and cling to yet another one I am to retain, as the Holy Spirit draws us to that center through the very Word of God. This, I believe.
Heretofore, I have not identified the church body to which I identify with, so I find it interesting that you begin a discussion of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. I never made that claim. Still, I find it offensive that you label them "sub-evangelical" for a string of charges you have against them. I never made the claim that the LCMS is orthodox, and would have difficulty applying that word to the 21st century practices of that church body, which I dare say, C.F.W. Walther probably would not recognize.
I just truned my Bible to Matthew 13. Verse 24 reads: "Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field." (Mt. 13:24 NIV). When I turn to Jonah 1:1, it reads, "The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 'Go to the great city of Ninevah and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.'" I see no similes, metaphors, and I am told of no parables. The account is rather straightforward. So, Doctor, what should lead a childlike believer to assume we must demythologize God's written Word here? And you hold this against the LCMS? Earlier in our conversations I gave you the benefit of the doubt, assuming you might be orthodox. I guess its not always wise to make assumptions. I say this not to insult you in any way, but if you consider it a great restraint on your intelectuality to be required to hold to "an historically literal Jonah and the whale" (your word), then why should I believe that you would hold to a bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ? My congregation will be celebrating an empty tomb in the upcoming weeks. How about yours?
This is not intended to be written in a polemic tone. I wish the best for you, and I desire that God would have mercy on the remnant in the ELCA. If the whole would repent, I would be happier still (as did Ninevah, and, yes, I believe in a real Ninevah). My concern for my brothers and sisters in Christ in the invisible church who belong to the ELCA, is not out of arrogance. I thought I've been clear on that part. It's genuine, God-given concern. I will admit that you will find sinners in every lutheran "church" or "synod" in North America, and for that matter, worldwide. But that does not make each church-body's doctrine just as good as the other, as politically correct as we are trained to be in this society. I write not to compare, but to warn, and to expose my heart which cries for what has happened in a church body I once was a member of. What you choose to do is for you to decide. "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord." May God have mercy upon us. In Christ Jesus, -Rik.
Reply to Rik - Again
You also worry about my 'intellectuality' as a threat to the child like faith that sees in Jonah's three nights in the belly of the whale a true sign of the bodily resurrection of Christ. Indeed you worry enough about this to question my 'orthodoxy.' I believe you, too, when you say that you don't mean to question me in a spirit of polemic. I want everyone to know I approve of Rik's questioning me, and I wish the people of the ELCA had the same gumption! Jesus says, "My sheep know my voice and a stranger they will not follow" Is it so in the ELCA?
I can't and won't be the judge of my own case, that is, I cannot preclude absolutely that I err in this regard, either in regard to Jonah or in regard to staying put where God has placed me, awkward as it is like Hosea of old to be married to a cheat (if my dire diagnosis proves true).
But from the foregoing paragraph it is already clear that I want to be a lot more cautious than you, apparently, in making judgments. Up until now, the ELCA has officially maintained orthodox commitments. In my rational judgment, if the Social Statement and Recommendations are passed, the ELCA will enter into a state of contradiction with its own normative teachings. Please note, this is my fallible judgment. I could be wrong. I must make my case, bear my witness and watch and see. Even if, however, my dire predictions come true, ironically enough (as I have said elsewhere on this blog) it simply means that the ELCA ceases to exist as a true (in your sense of the word) Church and devolves into a confederation of congregations in which we are all free to go our own ways. So it may not even be necessary legally to divorce. We can begin to live separate lives and look to what the Lord will raise up out of the dry bones. Indeed, in many ways we are already in a defacto state of schism.
As to Jonah, I seek in this and like cases to follow Luther's teaching on the ineffability (incomprehensibility) of God's works. I affirm the bodily ressurection of Christ, but confess that I am perplexed about a body that passes through walls and yet eats a piece of fish, a body that can ever make itself present in the Eucharistic gifts without exhaustion, and so on. Luther's counsel was never to ask the question, How? We cannot comprehend God and His works with this question, but reason must in humility give way to adoration.
Now Jonah is quite another matter. A piece of history and a piece of fiction can equally serve to make the Lord's point about the three days. The interpretation of Jonah is a matter of exegesis and genre. Nothing at all depends theologically on whether it is history or historical fiction. All that matters is the best possible plain sense reading of the text. What Preus' statement did, which is sub-evangelical, is make a historically literal interpretation a matter binding on conscience. That was wrong and schismatic.
Peace, Paul
Response to Paul
I confess that I have been judgemental. Where I have done so wrongfully, I plead your forgiveness and the forgiveness of others. There is a form of judging that is sinful ("Judge not lest ye be judged..." "Mey krinete, hina mey kritheyte;" Mt.7:1) and there is also a judging that is not only appropriate, but our LORD urges us to do so: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, "I am the Christ, and will deceive many...At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear...to deceive even the elect--if that were possible." (St. Mt. 24:4b-5, 23-24). How can we possibly obey Jesus' words to us if we are not to judge others. Muhammad ibn 'Abdullah (570-632) and Joseph Smith (1805-1844) and Sun Myung Moon (b. 1920) all claimed to be prophets. How can I avoid deception if we are not to judge (discern) the prophet from the false prophet? Did not our LORD say, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits..." (Mt. 7:15f.) [N.B. He does not say "form ecumenical dialogs with them."]. I do seek to be irenic and constructive without denying my LORD and His truth.
Regarding the LCMS: "I am sorry if the list of faults I ennumerated regarding the LCMS offended you, but you also went on to acknowledged that today's LCMS would cause old Walther to turn circles in his grave. So what am I to make of this?" I did not speak to their written confession, but rather to their PRACTICE (praxis). Regarding their written confession, I suppose they would claim that it is the same as in the days of CFW, but I would suggest comparing decisions made at recent LCMS conventions to the faith summed up in the "Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod" adopted in 1932. Especially regarding the roles of women. Close communion is to be practiced out of concern for the communicant that she/he not take the sacrament to her/his harm, yet in many LCMS churches, this has been greatly eroded in practice, at least according to my experience. "So what am I to make of this?" Please give me your definition of "sub-evangelical" (denotation and conotation) and I will think on this (or did you intend hyperbole?). The accusation seemed excessive to me, any way. We are coming from different sides here, as your list of concerns with the LCMS are different from my concerns with them.
You wrote:
"A piece of history and a piece of fiction can equally serve to make the Lord's point about the three days." I will agree with this statement. But you went on to say, "The interpretation of Jonah is a matter of exegesis and genre. Nothing at all depends theologically on whether it is history or historical fiction. All that matters is the best possible plain sense reading of the text." Here I must disagree with you. Why would I coose to consider the account of Jonah "fiction" to begin with? Because it is impossible, or at least highly unlikely? That argument is irrelevant, as miracles exist in both the old and new testaments of Holy Scripture. I believe in Yahweh, and I believe Him to be omnipotent. If God says He can rescue a man from the belly of a great fish, I have no problems believing Him. If God chose to flood the world, I will not mock Him by assuming He only flooded an area in what we now consider the "Middle East." Many cultures across the world speak of a great flood in their past. I base my convictions on the Word of God rather than the changing, evolving claims of science, who has proved to be fickle over the centuries. Scientific theories are theories only, and some are not very "scientific" when judged by the scientific method. My concern is when you can remove history by claiming that a portion of Scripture was fiction--I believe the word is "myth." "It doesn't matter whether it ocurred or not, but rather the truth it conveys is all that really matters." I'll have none of that thinking, thank you. You may deny Adam, Eve, et al, but I'll accept it as written. If I were in error, I would rather err on the side of literalism than imagining events did not take place. I'm very sorry, but I have to go for now. -Rik.
On Judging - Response to Rik
You are of course right that in the life of the church we must judge doctrine and life, especially we who have taken public vows at ordination to serve the Word and the Sacraments. But all baptised and confirmed people likewise have the duty to heed the voice of Jesus only, and not to go after a stranger. Such judgments do not come easily. The Church of the Reformation laid great emphasis on learning and skillful reasoning in service of the service of Word and Sacrament. And it also had a proper sensitivity to the burdens placed on consciences in unwittingly requiring people to hold as binding doctrine what is only a matter of theological opinion. It regarded the latter as spiritual tyranny. A famous example of the latter is 'transubstantiation' as an explanation of the mystery of the Lord's bodily presence in the Sacrament of the Altar. Our reformers too affirmed this mystery as integral to the gospel, so that reception would gift, not reward, but regarded transubstantiation as a particular theological theory explaining the Presence-- and not without its difficulties (i.e. the supposed annihilation of the substance of bread). To require faith in transubstantiation rather than faith in the bodily Presence of Christ in, with and under the bread thus laid a false burden on consciences, even though the theory wants to protect the mystery. This is what a 'sub-evangelical' practice denotes and connotes: it denotes something beneath the dignity of the gopsel in requiring beliefs over and beyond the mysteries of Christ crucified and risen, and such over-belief thus connotes lack of faith in the gospel itself to do what it says, i.e., to give that which it speaks of in a manner ineffable, beyond all comprehension.
If you follow this, then, you and I can agree to disagree about the right reading of Jonah without have a church-dividing disagreement, since I can honor your intention to affirm the power of God, and you can honor my intention to look and see what the biblical book is saying, e.g., whether parable or allegory (please, not the loaded, prejudicial term myth) might be its genre.
By the same token, however, affirming the power of God to do miracles is hardly an adequate criteria for judging doctrine or interpretation of Scripture. God can do anything (including speak through parables and allegories), but God will not do what is foolish or evil. If the only criteria in play is God's freedom or power, if God can speak through Balaam's ass, why not God speaking through Mohammed or Joseph Smith or Rev. Moon? My point is not that God does speak through these latter, but rather that the erring on the side of literalism in order to affirm God's power that you recommend is not adequate to the very task of judging right doctrine that you, in my view, rightly affirm.
Peace, Paul Hinlicky
Interesting Progression of Dialogue
On Judging - Response to Paul
"If the only criteria in play is God's freedom or power, if God can speak through Balaam's ass, why not God speaking through Mohammed or Joseph Smith or Rev. Moon?" "For false Christs and false prophets will appear...to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. (St. Matt. 24:24)." How can a church-body faithfully watch out for wolves, if it is too concerned that God may be speaking through them? I generally do not use the same translation you may prefer, but my NIV and ESV (among others) do not include the variation: "For many will come in my name, claming "I am the Christ." Don't be too concerned about them deceiving many--some of their words might be useful. God can still use wolves in sheeps clothing for His good, so don't bind the consciences of others by warning others of them. Instead, befriend them and dialog with them, and smother them with love and good will. Protect the flock? Such action might offend the otherly-oriented wolves. And if you accept some wrong teaching from them, don't worry about it too much, God will understand. Ravening wolves deserve a place at the table too!" No, that is not in my Bible, and I suspect its not in yours either. My approach to Scripture is much like John's: "...Satan's oldest trick in the book, that being to subtley appeal to us to challenge God's Word--'Did God really say?" You say, "...Erring on the side of literalism in order to affirm God's power...is not adequate to the very task of judging right doctrine..." My lack of credentials would seem to indicate that I am no theologian, nor do I claim to be any professional theologian, though I have had some theological training. In a sense we are all theologians, yet I recognise also that while if each of us are "in a sense" doctors because we seek to care for our physical needs and the needs of others to the best of our ability, I hope that doesn't mean we should all have the privilidge to prescribe medication and perform surgery. But with that being said, not every professional theologian is in the right, and the lab-coat of their training doesn't make their doctrines and reasonings automatically correct and Biblical. If this can be called "debate", I do not approach with the intent to win. I humbly approach with the desire that the truth will come out. "...Erring on the side of literalism in order to affirm God's power...is not adequate to the very task of judging right doctrine..." Literalism is not my vehicle to judging right doctrine--if it were, I might not hold to amillenial eschatology. I affirm God's power none the less, and do not disect God's word apart from my trust in His power in order to interpret it. The basic sense of the book of Jonah, as I tried to show you earlier, is that it did happen--it is not mere allegory. You would have me consider it to be an "open question" that we can "agree to disagree" about. Such an "agreement" quite simply is no real agreement at all, but "tolerance" and "pluralism." It should not be church-dividing? If you opted to believe that the Trinity were a theory--"and not without its difficulties", would you be bold enough to suggest it should be an "open question" too, so as to not tyranically bind consciences? Should this not be church dividing? And if an author of a book by Augsburg Fortress were to contend that Chrst did not bodily rise from the dead, I suppose you would be fine with that plurality as well? And what did Christ mean when he said that he would "bring division" (Luke 12:51)? Do you fault Martin Luther for not agreeing to disagree with Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy? Your Jesus may be chained to a location entitled "the right hand of God", yet my risen Jesus transcends singular location, and is truly present in the Lord's Supper. The "right hand of God refers to preferred position, not fixed location. So, you choose to reject Jesus' words "This is my body" because they don't sit well with reason, and I accept His words even if I don't understand them. Should that be church-dividing? A wise profeswsor once told me "Any false doctrine/teaching taken to its logical conclusion leads to unbelief." False teachings, and the denial of God's Word is dangerous. Christ Himself tells us this. If some leave the church by inventing new doctrines of human origin, does this make both camps heterodox because the church is divided? Or have some already left the church, and we need to lovingly win them back to the truth of God's Word? I have a different definition of sub-evangelical. I do not name names here: "Sub-evangelical" would refer to a church that is beneath reaching out to the unsaved with the life-saving Gospel for fear that it might offend those who have not previously heard the Good News (or had previously rejected it). I am thankful for churches who consider missions and outreach high on their agenda, and while I do have some criticisms of the LCMS Ablaze! movement for evangelism, I thank God for those churches, and THE church--the people of God--who strive to reach the lost with the Light of Christ. Have a Blessed celebration of Christ Jesus' resurrection. Alleluia!
ElCIC
Reply to Vic
GOD does not change, I am taught...
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John Dewey, who wrote, “A moral principle ...is not a command to act or forbear acting in a given way: it is a tool for analyzing a special situation, the right and wrong being determined by the situation in its entirety, not by the rule as such.”
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I have grown-up in an age shaped by the rediscovering of Jesus in the turmeric time of the 1960’s – “Peace, Love, and Joy man.” This an age in which the time of the Vietnam war when Christian Churches turned away seminary applicants. (These Ministers are retiring now.) A time when as a young man, I later regularly glared at the back of the head of the old stuffed suit sitting in the front pew, as he would purposefully begin to doze off at the first word in the Pastor’s Sunday Sermon. Now I newly discover I am labeled as the conservative right of the church. The old guard, as it were. Labels I did not elect or choose. When did I become such?
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Am I witness to a new age of rediscovering Jesus, again? Is there yet another new-new testament being translated that will eliminate the OT once and for all? The "New Revised" Lutheran Study Bible perhaps? All by myself, I too have unbelievingly heard how far left the words of our head office and their visiting representatives speak. Those who holler the loudest are serviced. Those who are personally devout quietly turn away. - Plain shame.
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...Jesus wept... And I weep too. I wish I could stop. Perhaps as a “cradle-to-grave” Lutheran, denominational change may put an end to my continual weeping as an "older, supposedly wiser, man."
Reply to Joe Congregation Member
While I am not from the exact era that you are from, I cannot help but see similartiies between your experiences and mine. I remember at a younger age, taking seriously the Word proclaimed, yet I inwardly questioned whether those around me, mostly more advanced in age, did the same. Yet I will not judge them. God knew and knows their hearts. I guess I was looking for a transformation...you know..."the old is gone, the new has come!" What I thought I saw was One-Day-a-Week-Christianity (or, one-hour-a week?). I longed for the Seven-day-a-week Christianity. Looking back, I guess my eyes did'nt always see some of the expressions of the faith around me. I guess they didn't jump out at me at the time. Today, I too get labeled with that right-wing label, when all I seek is faithfulness to God and to His Scriptures.
Joe, please don't leave Lutheranism just yet. I have a suggestion: Before even going to a worship service at another congregation, set up a meeting with the pastor of an AALC or LCMS or ELS or WELS church, and just talk things through. Tell the pastor where you're coming from, what you're currently going through, and your thoughts about pulling out of Lutheranism. I think you may find that there is Lutheranism outside of the ELCA. I suspect you'll discover that. Knowing what you know, Rome's not the answer, and neither are the Eastern Orthodox churches. With so many denominations swirling around us in dazzling array, don't be tricked into thinking the grass is always greener on the other side. Lutheranism has not left you. Perhaps the ELCA has. I''m not asking for you to commit to another church. My voice merely requests that you check it out. I experienced the LCA and the ELCA. I am in another Lutheran church, and for my wife and I it was definately the right choice. "Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning." At least in our situation, it applied to us. We still mourn for that which is broken, that which is following a faulty compass, but we are growing in the Word, and seeking to share the love of Christ to all. I hope to see you soon! God bless.
Lutheranism is alive, Joe
I Think I Want a Divorce
Please know that our ELCA brothers and sisters are in our prayers as they go through their own time of time of decision.
Reply to Arthur
Question concerning the Lord's Supper
I can only imagine the strain on ecumenical relations all this controversy will cause. My congregation is one of four church families who participate in a rural association of Christian churches. As in years past, we come together during this time of Lent to worship our God as one Christian community. While we have our differences in the expression of our faith, our beliefs are grounded in God's unalterable Word. Given the possible abandonment of orthodox Christian teachings by the ELCA, I wonder how this will affect our journey together? I suspect that we will continue to lift each other up as we have over the years - but there will be somthing disturbingly different that we will all need to contend with.
By God's grace I pray that we will maintain our common bond of faith, even if it is only at the local level.
respond to Hinlicky
Dear Mr. Hinlicky,
Although a vote by any group of sinful humanity doesn’t change the scripture, below is the vote our church had on April 27, 2008. Some members of the congregation had to push for a vote on this issue. The vote was supposed to just be on “yes” or “no” and you can see what was added to sidetrack the congregation; as you can see; it didn’t work!
I tried to find out if and when other Lutheran churches in NC had voted on this issue. I emailed the NC Bishop and asked him in person.......no response.
Mt. Zion Lutheran of Conover, NC voted on the issue of ordaining persons in a same-gender sexual relationship.
Below is what was on the ballot and the votes:
__17 (9.5%)____ I trust the ELCA to continue discussion that solicits input from all aspects of the church and to finally make a decision about this issue that is grounded in scripture, faithful to the gospel, enlightened by the Lutheran confessions, and that reflects justice and fairness for all persons.
__149 (83.7%)___ I am opposed to persons in same-gendered committed relationships being rostered in the ELCA.
___12 (6.7%)___ I am not opposed to persons in same-gendered committed relationships
being rostered in the ELCA.
“THE STATEMENT” repeatedly uses the term life-long, committed relationship as if that justifies/sanctifies/moralizes a same-gender sexual relationship. According to scripture, living in a sinful relationship is against God......doing so with intention and no repentance (striving for a renewed life in Christ) is to reject God’s forgiveness and grace. Committed to a life-long sinful relationship with no intention to change does not make the relationship better; rather it seems to be snubbing God’s forgiving grace. The Scripture and the writings of Martin Luther say that God’s grace give us “license” to sin.
If one looks at the liturgy (beginning statement of forgiveness, communion, etc), there are clear statements that after we ask for forgiveness, we should attempt in our own imperfect way to change.
How can rostered leaders teach catechism and lead the congregation in statements of forgiveness, administer baptism, and give holy communion when they are living in a life-long sinful relationship without repentance?
There is a definite sign of problems with the church direction when there is a proposal to remove the “morality clause” from the ELCA constitution so the church can ordain and accept rostered leaders that are in a sinful life-long same-gender relationship. The removal of morality as a reason to dismiss a rostered leader basically says to candidates for ordination, church members, and those who are not members of the ELCA that anything goes, and that meaningful repentance is not important.
Ron Sipe
Conover, NC
Reply to Ron
Having said that, Ron, I refer you to my response to others on this web site that we recognize that at the heart of the Lutheran tradition is a surpassing word of mercy on us broken sinners who cannot fix everything in this life and the corresponding humility which knows that before God none of us (especially in the matter of sex!) is without sin.
It is really quite shameful that it has taken this issue of normalizing same-sex marriage to shake ELCA Christians from their lethargy and sloth, when the far more injurious sins of infidelity, divorce and child-neglect/abuse beset the heterosexual majority.
I would far more comfortable with the argument you make if the high standard of public morality to which you rightly summon those privileged to serve in ordained or lay ministries were applied with equal force to our heterosexual sins.
reply to Hinlicky
Ron Sipe
Divorcing
But then the larger problem comes into play, my fiance lives long distance and is also ELCA. We'll be married by her pastor. Then I am moving down there, so I may join an LCMS church and be in it only a few months. There are also job opprotunities though within her church's school that in the future she would like to take up. And being young in this economy its a bad idea to jeopardize a job opprotunity.
Reply to Kirk
At What Point Is It Appropriate to Separate?
Dear Paul:
Probably no one here is your equal in a theological debate and I do not say this to flatter. I would have to do that. Yet, I do want you to think about one thing.I agree with your whole argument, but then we come to a different conclusion. I do not wish to be part of a body that thinks apostolic doctrine is up for a vote. I wonder at what point you think it is appropriate to separate? However, in fact, that is just a rhetorical question. I do not think cyberspace is the best place for people to be declaring their intentions. The point I do want people to think about is this:
Congregations do not think about this issue as individuals do. I have heard theologians say "If you feel it has reached the point you and your family need to leave the ELCA, fine, but be warned there is no perfect church out there," and go on to declare that they will never leave the ELCA. On the other hand, congregations think on a different level. They are not wedded to schools of thought (not to mention how few know of Jarislav of blessed memory). Congregations know when they are dealt with dishonestly, when they cannot trust the officials who come with promises and hands out, and they know when they cannot stand to go to another Synod Assembly.
In short, I think many of my peers in the pastorate and academy hold certain theological positions more dear than anything.
Why should a congregation stay in the ELCA?
Separate?
Reply to Eric
My counsel to pastors is this: wait and see what actually happens in August; in the meantime, take action to protect yourself and your congregation, such as amending your congregation's constitution to require pastor's subscription to Visions and Expectations; do not forward any more money to Higgins Road, but invest your mission giving in worthy causes; begin to look for other forms of wider church fellowship; insist that in regard to the foregoing you are acting in conscience and loyally to your ordination vows and will not be bullied or intimadated about the foregoing; bear witness against at every possible opportunity against the bullies, even if you must suffer for it. If in August, the proposals pass, then look to the formation of a non-geographical coalition with a good conscience, in that the ELCA by passing that local ordination option has de facto ceased to exist as a church.
My advice to congregations is: don't give your money to anything you don't believe in, don't participate in the stacked deck of ELCA assemblies according to their rules any longer; don't continue in the state of sloth but demand that your pastors teach you the Scripture, the Confessions and trustworthy Lutheran and ecumenical theology.
And if all that fails, then wipe the dust off your feet. Or, wait like me until they kick you out.
Your divorce papers with the ELCA
I appreciated your article, and also appreciate your desire to stay where you are and fight for the truth. Let me tell you why I don't believe I can do the same - and I would love to hear any advice you might have.
I currently work in an ELCA church as a Youth Director. If it were "only" the ELCA moving in this direction I might be able to overlook the issue for the good of the ministry. However, I do not think that I can continue in a church where the local pastor supports what is a direct contradiction, or at least a minimizing of significance, to the word of God in Scripture. How can I in good conscience encourage others, especially the young, to listen to the words of a preacher who nullifies God's Word?
Reply to Brad
This is what I would advise. Thanks for asking.
My prayers