I was not at Fort Wayne. I noted that there was no one on the program who actually was at Seminex, was on the 801 faculty [as I was], who was actually "investigated" by the fact finding committee, and who was put out of the LCMS. Therefore the program at Fort Wayne did not represent ev everyone involved. There were no presentations on John Tietjen, Martin Scharlemann or Ralph Bohlmann; did anyone represent the positive outcome for Lutheranism outside the LCMS, speak at all about the Lutheran reactioin among members of the LSF? It strikes me that it was very incomplete

Rev. Krentz,

Thankyou for your coments. I agree wholeheartedly with you that this was not a definitive conference (although for the record, Dean Wenthe did give a brief paper on Martin Scharlemann). In the end it was more a collection of presentations about the key theological figures from the decades leading up to Seminex than the events of the time itslef. Clearly there were some glaring absences - key among them John Tietjen. There was little mention made about the LCUSA. Ed Schroeder and the Law-Gospel dialectic were discussed but not as topics within their own right.

In my view this conference was a good, safe first step. Robert Wilken, Phil Secker and I were treated very well by the assembly as were our subject matters, which as Bob Benne described last year in Forum Letter is not always the case at these symposia. Perhpas the next step would be a conference at 801 Demun (or 801 Seminary Place as it is now called) that could bring together individuals like yourself who experienced so much personal pain. Your story deserves to be told in its own words. This conference showed that the topic could at least be discussed civilly, and that in Missouri is no small thing.

Dr Krentz is right of course, that the stories of those who were actually there should be presented by those who survive. I was at Concordia Senior College in that year and then studied at Seminex. I had not set foot on the campus of Concordia in 35 years and went with some tepidation. I was when the folk there learned I was an ELCA Pastor and a Seminex grad treated for the most part with kindness and curiosity. There was one rather nasty incident about "How are you getting along with the priestesses" but for the most part a desire to engage in theological talk. How I wish I found the same willingness to engage in theology in our own church {ELCA] and not just by co\task forces and assembly votes. Have we not learned that majority votes do not determine truth. We face great issues in the ELCA which cut to the heart of what is the Office of the Ministry and what is the Church. I find no place for us to engage in the type of serious theological and confessional reflection such problems merit. My prayers are that our own seminaries would sponsor symposia of the quality that I just attended. As an aside Your presentation on BvS was outstanding as I told you at the symposia.

I was an M.Div. at Seminex student during the summer and academic year final in Saint Louis, one of the youngest -- if not the youngest -- seminarians in the country. At that time, Seminex was meeting in the Humbolt Building on Grand while the Fox Theater was being renovated. (For any old classmates reading this, I was the guy with the crutches.)

I had been a member of an LCMS congregation and transferred to an AELC congregation because a number of our members would have left had I maintained LCMS membership.

Although I am no longer Lutheran and have served in The United Methodist ministry, on the staff of a United Church of Christ congregation and now, the Congregational ministry (NACCC), for years, I was always very saddened by the damage and pain the occurred when the "split" developed.

Having attended Concordia College -- River Forest, I also knew first hand the sad situation with Grace Lutheran Church and its Pastor F. Dean Lueking because, encouraged by several "liberal" faculty, I attended there and it was he who recommended me to Seminex.

I did not attend the conference, so I do not know whether presentations about key Seminex figures were presented fairly by anyone who might be presenting from the LCMS (non-Seminex) position.
For effective healing to take place, I believe there has to be a willingness on both sides to dialog and to understand each other's perspectives rather than analyzing through either side's "lens". Otherwise, there's the risk of misinterpretation or misrepresentation or a change of emphasis that may not, truly, represent the person being discussed.

Pastor Rob Weiter

As another one of the youngin's who didn't live through those tumultuous times (born in 1970), I enjoyed the presentations very much. The most informative for me were your paper on von Schenk, and Shuta's paper on WAM I. In these two men we see two of the major trajectories that define the LCMS to this day. While that isn't precisely about Seminex, et alii, it does demonstrate that issues facing Lutheranism worldwide go much deeper than simplistic "Battle for the bible" perspectives.

Thanks for your time. I enjoyed it very much.

Pr. Todd Peperkorn

Aside from the fact that much healing needs to take place, Seminex is becoming a bit of a historical debate even among those who were professors and students at Seminex. Found within several of Ed Schroeder's Thursday Theology articles found at Crossings.org, he mentions that the real battle was over the teaching going on in the Systematics department (Bertram-Schroeder law/gospel emphasis vs. 17th cent. Lutheran orthodoxy taught by the faculty minority).

When I attended Seminex it seemed like most people interpreted the battle as one within the Exegesis department, i.e. Biblical inerrancy vs. the Historical Critical method. This was the view I tended to follow during my Seminex years and for a couple of decades as a parish pastor and Navy Chaplain. Now I lean towards Dr. Schroeder's understanding.

It would be good to have a symposium just among the Seminex crowd to hear their similarities and differences. Then maybe another with those who remained at 801 Demun, etc. Even after reading all of the histories centering on Seminex, the underlying reasons for the LCMS schism are more complex than we might realize.

Following a quick read of both above article and comments, I want to invite anyone who wishes to "thrive and survive" in the law/gospel hermeneutic to attend the annual Crossings international conference held near St. Louis. (see website www.crossings.org) Those of us who attended Christ Seminary-Seminex have a distinct and up-to-date way of dealing with the issue of faithful confessing of the Gospel in a pluralist age. This annual conference is a must for anyone who sees mission as a priority here in America. With many alien gospels floating around being passed off as THE Gospel (ala Galatians) the Crossings conference will give you tools to wade through the communication mire within both church and world.

Your article doesn't explain why each of the presenters alluded to Richard Neuhaus (maybe just the closeness of January 8), but here's why if I had been a presenter (unlikely in the extreme) I would have alluded to him. He asked himself, "Why not Rome?" and couldn't find a satifactory answer. As Lutheranism (left, right and center) declines in America it should be asking itself what it has that people want and need that can't be easily found elsewhere; and how whatever that is can be presented in terms those same people have a reasonable chance of apprehending. The institutions (ELCA, LCMS) have a natural and understandable urge to preserve themselves, but that's not an answer to Richard's question. The debates I see in these pages seem quite focused on the categories and issues of previous times and situations. When I was in the hands of the LCMS educational establishment (prior to the great cleansing), there was lots of talk about how to make Lutheran witness relevant to the times. I'm not suggesting we came up with complete or even good answers, but here we are 40 years later still focused on issues the man or woman in the street would find bewildering. The numbers make it clear that Christianity in America is figuring out how to get along without us.

I was a student at Concordia, St. Louis from 1968 to 1972. I knew the key players and was a student of Dr. Klein, and Dr. Smith and Dr. Tiejen, and Dr. Damn and all the rest of the "boys". However, what stands out to me, and yes, I still have the pain from those days, it does not leave very easily, even when we give it over to our Lord Jesus and let Him handle it... To continue,I ask, "Was the real issue about John Tiejen and Ralph Klein and Martin Schaarleman?" (frankly I do not care how to spell their names, they do not even know mine.) These good men were the leaders of students, of newly ordained Pastors who were, as I was, serving in their first congregations. Clergy like me, who believed the talk of the Seminex boys and because I wanted to "defend the true Gospel of Jesus" as ELIM proclaimed, I carefully and methodically led my congregation to prayerfully and scripturally examine the issues and (to cut this short,) leave the LCMS and become part of the AELC. At what cost? To me personally, huge! To my congregation? huge!. To personal relations for both myself and the congregation? huge!. And for what? At the end of the day, this writer believes it was an ego trip of which he, as a newly ordained pastor and recent Concordia, St Louis graduate was a witless, (shame on me) victim. All of us, both the "them" and the "us" need to repent of the terrible sin of Pride. Yes, there is a time to defend the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus, but Seminex was not that time. What we can do today is to prostrate ourselves at the foot of the Cross we thought we were defending. We can ask the Lord of that cross to forgive our sins (both sides) of arrogance. We can receive his word of forgiveness because of our contrition, a true heartful sorrow,. And then we can, all of us, stand up, embrace with the words of the Service, "The Peace of the Lord be with You." and then kneeling at the altar we can participate, by His grace, in the Holy Body and Blood, really and truly present. And gathering together after that most holy, existential and ontological event, we can start all over again to do His work. Hey, guys, He is still Lord of Lords and King of Kings and if we do not do this before we die, we may be shocked at His response to us when we stand, or should I again say, as we lay prostrate before Him!

"Have we not learned that majority votes do not determine truth."

-Rev. Steven Little

How odd things how things fall into place! I was writing to someone about Martin Scharlemann and did a google to spell his name right. (still not sure) and ran across this post. I suppose that this is stale stuff by now but as it turns out, I was at the Ft. Wayne symposium and also at Concordia St. Louis during the year of the walk out and formation of Seminex. I don't think I've ever met you but your observation is correct. I don't believe that anyone who was there at the time can ever be dispassionate about it.

As one who went from the " moderate" side and almost went to Seminex with all my friends to one who was "converted" to the historic position of the LCMS, I think that I have a unique perspective. After all these years. I am still amazed that those who left continue to see the conflict only in terms of personality and power struggle.

I was surprised at how much pain that the symposia re awakened in me. In one sense I wish that the " moderate" profs would have never subjected me to this experience, on the other hand I am thankful that I have been able to have a more focused and honest ministry because I refuse to avoid speaking clearly about theology and the faith once delivered.

All I can say on the subject is that while I was at Seminary in the early 90's, the story of the walkout that was lead into the cafeteria building was talked about quite regularly in Professor Schmelder's class. It was quite clear to me that anger and betrayal was felt by many of the staff over the split.

I am in the middle of James Burkee's new book, "Power, Politics, and the Missouri Synod" as I search for an adult perspective on what I experienced as a child leaving Concordia, St. Louis. I am amazed at the strength of emotion that rises as I read the book. I was only 9 at the time of Seminex, yet the wound has not completely healed. I feel the need to say something about the children and families, what I can only think of as collateral damage, in this fight of politics, theology, and power jockeying.

I guess I do not want our suffering, and our involvement in all this to be forgotten. While professors and students and presidents were invested in the big issues, the children were left to make sense of a fracturing community and confusing, traumatic tension. The pain of Seminex has been deeply felt, not only by the professors and students who suffered it, but also by the families and children of those students and professors. Concordia, St. Louis was a beloved community for the children who grew up and played on that campus. I grieved the loss of that place and those friends for years. And obviously, I am still trying to make sense of what happened. I thank God for the new life Christ offers us.

I have found new life in the ELCA, a church body that rose from Seminex ashes. I am thankful for a church body that seeks to struggle together with the difficult questions instead of purging those who disagree. But as the ELCA faces its own exodus of ministers and teachers after the decisions regarding sexuality, I pray that we have learned something about how to disagree respectfully and with humility (though it does not seem so.) Seminex taught me that the Body of Christ, the church, is not broken apart without blood, and pain, and heartache, and good people behaving badly. The leaving of colleagues and congregations from the ELCA grieves me, and raises the spectre of Seminex again, with difficult issues of broken communities and fractured communities of faith all in the name of defending the word of God.

I know there are no easy answers, for then or now. I just wanted to add one more voice to this discussion, the voice of one who at the time was powerless to stop it, or understand it, and yet had to bear it nevertheless. Perhaps even the adults felt powerless and confused, but certainly the children also had their faith shaken (or crushed), their understanding of God challenged, and the church made suspect. I do believe no one came away unscathed. May God grant us healing.

I left the LCMS in 1981 finally fed up with all of the bickering. Don't be under the false impression that this nastiness was confined to "801." This nightmare began just as I finished junior confirmation in 1969 and I ended it as I began my Air Force career as a young officer. As fortune would have it, my first active duty assignment was back to my home town and I could still attend the church everyone saw me grow up. My Pastor was proud of me. I was an acolyte, regular attendance in Sunday School, junior confirmation and a few years later a Sunday School teacher. When I went off to college, I found an LCMS church and attended regularly and that church as well had to deal with the schism. When I got transfer orders to another Air Force Base, it took about another year to come to the inescapable conclusion that this fighting would never end. I sent a letter to my Pastor informing him of my departure from the LCMS. Pastor was heartbroken and conveyed those thoughts and feelings to my Father who in turn conveyed them to me. I told my Father that adults ultimately have to make choices and that I was tired of a body of Christians incessantly fighting and I had absolutely NO IDEA who was right. The Air Force was training me to lead and fight in war if so ordered and I could only think of Lincoln's admonition to Seward, "one war at a time." And yes folks, face facts, this schism might not have been fought with guns and bombers and tanks, but it was a war nonetheless fought with ideas AND THERE WERE CASUALTIES. But the axiom still holds, "In war the first casualty is the truth!" When I left, I didn't bother to make further inquiry with respect to the final resolution and I have not set foot upon LCMS property in 30 years. It was not until a few weeks ago that my curiosity got the better of me and I have spent a considerable amount of time reading. Nothing has been resolved, the LCMS and ELCA are still trading verbal salvos at one another. Some points of dispute are legitimate but the bottom line is that you all have your doctrinal dirty laundry hung out there for all to see with all the pageantry and petulancy of the WWF. Forty out of 48 faculty members at 801 came under the pall of suspicion by J.A.O. Preus and those supporting him. Some documents say the 40 faculty were either "purged" or left and other records on the internet stipulate that the mechanics of this purge was likened to a witch hunt. Maybe Preus and his allies were right but 40 out of 48? Given the cultural and theological profile of the LCMS, which had and still today maintains a conservative tint, if 83% of the faculty at the Flagship Seminary were allowed to become "moderate" or "liberal" or "liberal" or "moderate" WHATEVER!?!?!?! Then WHO was minding the store through those years and allowed this "insurgency?" There's a parallel lesson here from Cold War History. In the book, "The Venona Secrets," it is revealed that while Senator Joseph McCarthy might have been right about the names on the piece of paper he "held in his hand," the political hay he was attaining fed the conflagration of his own drunken ego to the point that he was seeing communist spies in every corner, behind every tree, and in every movie. "Venona" was a highly highly classified program that had broken Soviet message code. The program was so successful, those in the US Counter Intelligence Community involved maintained such rigid security, even the President of the United States was not aware of its existence. The point is this, McCarthy might have been right BUT HE DID NOT KNOW the true source(s) on which he based his claims. Thus, in the mix of the guilty, there was also the innocent. The feud between Teitjen and Preus placed the burden on Preus (my military values in play here, the leader has the greater responsibility) and from my readings, there is a modicum of agreement that while Preus might have been right, the actions of him and his allies were nothing short of the craven application of political bare knuckles. Due process? Mature Inquiry? Sober and deliberate investigation? My readings lead me to conclude that none of this existed between 1969-1981. Perhaps in all of this mess, the Holy Spirit decided to pack up and leave town. Is it possible that the free will of men forces the Lord to the sad conclusion that his presence will only result in diminishing returns and there are better returns elsewhere from those who have truly committed to His love and will? Two hundred thousand left the LCMS during this period and I would venture to say there's been no recovery from this in spite of the best spin efforts coming out of St. Louis. And today in the 21st Century, the literature again is sounding a warning that another schism is waiting to happen. Will Santayana be validated one more time? Me? Not going to effect me a bit...I'm gone for good. And what happened to me? I was off and on with the Episcopal Church for about 10 years until Bishop Spong writes a paper that the Resurrection of Christ never happened. As soon as I read that piece of theological poo (heresy would be more like it), I was gone from that church in a New York Minute. Two churches, 2 disappointments. It's taken nearly two decades of independent research, thought, prayer, and discussion to be secure that the third time WILL NOT be like the two prior. What church? I'm Roman Catholic now and will remain until God calls me home. A few days ago, I talked with my sister, now a Baptist (she left the LCMS too for similar reasons). I told her two things I thought I would never proclaim from an ex-Lutheran who because of the schism so many years ago, became wary of making any commitment to any Christian denomination and now a very committed Roman Catholic. 1) The Roman Catholic Church is in secular and religious historical records, the first Church. 2) [probably more inflammatory on this board], the Roman Catholic Church is the true church of Jesus Christ. To the LCMS and the Lutheran movement; I can finally say good bye, good luck (you'll need it), Godspeed and I pray you all think very very hard about fighting like the devil for what you might think is a heavenly cause. After all the anger of men does not bring about the righteousness of God.